More Muslim Marvelousnous

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Champion-of-Truth

Ibn Warraq wrote:

Yeah, yeah, we know all about the PFLP. Which part of “Muslims commit 95% of all terrorism while the other 5% is committed by all other belief systems” did you not understand? Or are Palestinian Christians not part of any belief system and thus exist outside of both the 5% of non-Muslim terrorist groups as well as the 95% which are Muslim?

I think a lot depends on how you define terrorism.

Show me how Islam makes society better, when every Islamic state is a hellhole of intolerance, lack of freedom, slavery, and violence. Explain to me why Islam creates more death and destruction than any other religion including Satanism, which worships the devil himself. Can’t wait to destroy your stupid propaganda. Show me a tolerant, free, peaceful Islamic society. Get busy!

I think a lot of your result has to do with concentrating your analysis on Islamic theocracies or near theocracies. If you broadened your query to majority muslim states, I think you might be abel to find a decent country in there somewhere.

I could just as easily ask you to show me a Jewish state that isn’t rife with human rights abuses, intolerance, violence and lack of freedom. It seems to be something that a lot of theocratic states seem to have in common.

I guess the vatican isn’t too bad but can you really call it a state instead of a really big compound?

[villa]

@magellan01

Today. TODAY! :rolleyes:

I’ve acknowledged numerous times that there have been plenty of past atrocities by other religions. I will say, though, that it is wrong to attribute the Holocaust to a religion. It was Hitler and Nazism.

The perpetrators of the Shoah were overwhlemingly Christian. The history of anti-Semitism in Europe, of which the Shoah is a part is overwhelmingly a Christian history. Absent that background, and absent the complicity of Christians and Christianity, there could have been no Shoah.

Also, a significant element of the Serbian war crimes were religiously motivated.

The Lord’s Resistance Army aren’t the nicest people in the world, either.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Champion-of-Truth

As for “making up shit about Islam”, until you step up to the plate and refute my facts and sources and prove that I am “making up stuff about Islam”, you’re just another troll. You insult, but you cannot address facts. Nothing I have stated about Islam is false or made up and I can back everything I say with facts and sources. You, of course, cannot. And so you are dismissed.

Religious terrorism

There is at least some evidence taht terrorism (even terrorism by brown people) is motivated by geo-political conditions rather than ululating allah worship.

[magellan01]

@villa

The perpetrators of the Shoah were overwhlemingly Christian. The history of anti-Semitism in Europe, of which the Shoah is a part is overwhelmingly a Christian history. Absent that background, and absent the complicity of Christians and Christianity, there could have been no Shoah.

Also, a significant element of the Serbian war crimes were religiously motivated.

The Lord’s Resistance Army aren’t the nicest people in the world, either.

In other words, if their was no western civilization, their could have been no Holocaust. You know, I think you’re onto something there! Also, if we never had made it out of Africa there would have been no war with Germany! Whataya think? I feel like we’re on the same page now. Like I’m channeling you. Good, huh?

The fact that you think that just because a Christian does something bad that it’s due to his religion is asinine. The same is true of any act committed by a religionist of any stripe. But when the said barbarian commits said atrocity because he thinks his religion compels home to do so and he screams “Allah Akbar” as he is doing it and expects a reward in his version of heaven for doing it, it’s kinda different. Kinda like a puddle in the street is different from the Amazon River.

Unbelievable. And unlike some others in this thread (Hi, Luci) you’re far from an idiot.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Champion-of-Truth

If I’m wrong, all you need to do is post a source proving me wrong. So far, I’ve disproven everything the few people who attempted to rebut me with have thrown out there (Ibn Warrad misquoting Spencer, for example).

Do you really think that Palestinian strap on explosive vests because Allah told them to? You can’t see any other factor that might cause the suicide bombings in Israel?

Sure there is some purely religiously based terrorism but I think your numbers are off.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@tomndebb

No. You did not. Lying about that does you no good when we can see the actual statement that you made:
Nothing in there about “religions.” Nothing in there about doing it for Christianity. It is a simple question that asked when was the last time a Christian committed a specific act.

Well, he phrased it that way so he opens up the debate on whether 9/11 was largely religiously motivated. A lot of militant Islamists are about as religiously motivated by Islam as Zionists are by Judaism.

Its too much uncertainty to have in a world view that requires crystal clarity.

[villa]

@magellan01

In other words, if their was no western civilization, their could have been no Holocaust. You know, I think you’re onto something there! Also, if we never had made it out of Africa there would have been no war with Germany! Whataya think? I feel like we’re on the same page now. Like I’m channeling you. Good, huh?

The fact that you think that just because a Christian does something bad that it’s due to his religion is asinine. The same is true of any act committed by a religionist of any stripe. But when the said barbarian commits said atrocity because he thinks his religion compels home to do so and he screams “Allah Akbar” as he is doing it and expects a reward in his version of heaven for doing it, it’s kinda different. Kinda like a puddle in the street is different from the Amazon River.

Unbelievable. And unlike some others in this thread (Hi, Luci) you’re far from an idiot.

Do you know the first thing about the history of anti-Semtism? You think it sprung up after the Nazis came to power? Throughtout European history, the Christian Church stimulated anti-Semitism. Including eliminationist anti-Semitism. Hitler tapped into this. Regardless of whether Hitler was a Christian or not, the overwhelming majority of the Germans, Poles, Croats, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and Ukrainians who machine gunned naked Jewish men, women and children, or who dropped gas pellets on them were Christian, and were performing acts they saw as consistent with their beliefs.

Is taking part in the extermination of Jews consistent with Christianity? I’d say no. But they thought it was, and they were, to a large extent, doing it in Christ’s name. Every Muslim leader I have heard would say that flying planes into buildings isn’t consistent with Islam. But that isn’t important for you.

In Eastern Europe, much as in the Middle East, the boundaries of religion and nationalism have become very blurred.

I see you choose to ignore the religious aspect to the Serbian crimes in the 1990s, as well as the ongoing crimes in the name of Christ undertaken by the Lord’s Resistance Army.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Champion-of-Truth

My attitude is the exact opposite of the Muslims (calling them Muslim extremists is redundant).

Well, I guess thats the end of my attempts to engage you.

I was going to overlook the skewed perspective you had in other areas but I think its about time to admit that I simply cannot reaason a person out of a position that they didn’t reaon themselves into.

[VinylTurnip]

@magellan01

The fact that you think that just because a Christian does something bad that it’s due to his religion is asinine. The same is true of any act committed by a religionist of any stripe. But when the said barbarian commits said atrocity because he thinks his religion compels home to do so and he screams “Allah Akbar” as he is doing it and expects a reward in his version of heaven for doing it, it’s kinda different.

OK, let’s say it IS different. When the guy with the turban does it, he’s being inspired by his religion.

And then? Let’s hear the magellan01 solution to the problem. Ban Islam from the planet? Better get crackin’, you’ve got your work cut out for you.

[Capitaine_Zombie]

@VinylTurnip

OK, let’s say it IS different. When the guy with the turban does it, he’s being inspired by his religion.

And then? Let’s hear the magellan01 solution to the problem. Ban Islam from the planet?

Dont you need a few warnings before you get banned?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

I don’t get how you can think that is my stance. My point is that in today’s world, Islam is the religion that seems to incite the most violence. By far.

I think it might have been your OP taht poisoned the well for me when you implied that punishing a 14 year old girl by whipping her to death was representative of Islam generally.

The addition of the words “then you might have a feel for Islam” after you describe the incestuous rape followed by the lethal whipping seems to imply that you think that this sort of thing is emblematic of Islam.

It’s something about the Koran. We have a bunch of barbaric animals murdering and maiming innocent people for sport. And they common denominator is that they say they are doing it for Islam, while they shout Allah Akbar. I’m not attributing their action to Islam, THEY are. Clearly. I am not an expert on the Koran, and I really don’t care what aspect of it is what these barbarians respond to. The fact is that they—and not just a handful of guys—see that that book condones, or compels, them to act like animals.

So, without identifying how the Koran stands out beyond the bible or the talmud, you correlate all the crap evil people do in the name of Allah with the worship of allah?

A lot of people have attributed Islamic violence to geopolitical facts rather than religiosus doctrine and frankly they seem to at least have the best of the argument why they are violent towards teh specific people theya re violent towards. I mean the jihadists aren’t trying to convert the benighted people of Columbia. There is a reason why they are targetting the USA and its not to convert us to Islam. Do you think that they would be attacking the USA if Israel didn’t exist or if we didn’t have military bases all over the world? I’m not saying its ok to attack us because we do but I am saying that their reason for attacking us is not because we are infidels.

You’re making a mistake in logic. You’re assuming that the problem stated necessarily applies to all of Islam. That’s not correct. If I were to start an OP entitled, “More New York City Marvelousness”, and railed about how fucked up NYC politics are concerning the unions, that does NOT mean that I think all of NYC is a degenerate and corrupt place with no positive attributes.

Yes and then I read your OP and it seems like youa re paainting all of Islam with this one act.

Knock yourself out. I might join you. But I chose to focus on Islam, because I see that it is not a rare occurrence when some assholes use it as an excuse to inflict some unimaginable barbarism on society.

I thought I did at least a little bit. The irony of religion is that almost every religion preaches love but is a powerful language in spreading hatred.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

1. The Koran. While a great deal of the barbarism from both sides can be attributed to ignorance, one side commits the atrocities in the name of their religion, often while screaming Allah Akbar.

I’m pretty sure that the Christian witch hunters in Africa are doing everything in the name of God.

2. Scope. Much of the Christian violence in the third world is restricted to the third world. The Islam violence flowers there but has spread to the West. I’m forced to deal with it more than the Christian violence.

So what makes Islamic violence worse is that it might theoretically affect while you are insulated from Christian violence and therefore can be ignored? Your OP seems to be criticizing Islam on its face not as a result of its impact on you. If I can pull up similar examples of horrible things happening in the name of Christ doesn’t that make Islam fungible with Christianity at least as far as “whose religion is more fucked up”?

I also don’t think that the number of severity of barbaric acts is even near similar. Ignorant radical Muslims seem to kick the ass of ignorant radical Christians in that regard.

I thinkn there might be some skew based on the number of muslims in third world countries compared to the number of Christians in third world countries.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

I was thinking that fell outside my timeframe. But I guess it was still around in the fifties, so I’ll shorten my timeline to the past 50 years instead of the past 60.

The vietnam war? For fucks sake, how about the Bush recession?

Maybe. Maybe not. But, please, do not try to imply that the MAIN reason was anything other than the act itself. Please. It’s just ridiculous.

The MAIN reason for what?

I think that if we limited our response to Aghanistan, we would have put everything to rest by now. We would have caught OBL, we would have put him on trial, Islamists would not have been inflamed by our actions and encouraged by OBL’s actions. It would have been over but no, we had to take our eyes off the target and go after someone who had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.

The deaths 9/11 itself was not that big a deal. More people died of car accidents in September of 2001 than of terrorism. I knew people in the towers on 9/11 and it was bad and we had to respond but it wasn’t the biggest thing to happen in my lifetime.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

Yes, Republican ideas and ideals tend to shine when hit by the light of reality. Especially when it comes to national security.

I see it as fearmongering and opportunistic use of xenophobia of the sort that George Orwell talks about in 1984.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

A lot of militant Islamists are about as religiously motivated by Islam as Zionists are by Judaism.

I’m sorry, but that claim is ridiculous.

David Ben Gurion, the founder of Israel was an atheist as were many if not most of the original founders.

Please give me the name of a single “militant Islamist” who is an atheist.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

What you’re talking about was really a fifties phenomenon, though it made it into the early and mid sixties. People weren’t really clamoring to build fallout shelters, but we did have drills in which we were told to get under our desks, which then changed to going into the basement. I pretty much missed the fifties. Another difference is that that attack from the Soviets was a fear never realized. Unlike attacks from Islam.

I suspect you used 60 years to try and equate 9/11 to the events surrounding WWII. WWII is up there but 9/11 is so far down the list below WWII that it might not make the top 10.

The cold war was more than the threat of nuclear holocaust. We had these things called proxy wars. One of them was even in Afghanistan.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

Today. TODAY! :rolleyes:

I’ve acknowledged numerous times that there have been plenty of past atrocities by other religions. I will say, though, that it is wrong to attribute the Holocaust to a religion. It was Hitler and Nazism.

It seems like the Nazis at least used Christianity somewhat in its propoganda efforts

Religion in Nazi Germany

[NCDane]

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

I’m not following you.
[/QUOTE]

All religion claims to make people better. Where conditions are
persistently bad religion may IMO be said to have failed in its mission.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

And if someone were to equate American military activity to “Christian” military activity? I know its a different point but if you are saying that the “blast radius” caused by adherents to a religion makes it more of a cause for concern then.
[/QUOTE]

You are right, it is a different point. It is not relevant to any point
I have been making, and even if true would not diminish any point
I have made.

I have been around and around on the topic to the tune of 100s,
maybe 1000s of posts of various chat rooms since 2004. I am tired
of it, and do not wish to take part in any more lengthy exchanges.

Very briefly, however: If you are speaking of Afghanistan I would
say that American military activity has been a legitimate response
to attack on its soil. If you are speaking of Iraq I would say American
military activity was legitimate deposition of a regime which had
already started two wars, and although weakened was persisting
in defiant behavior. Both countries would be enjoying tranquility
were in not for terrorism IMO likely conducted for the most part by
religious Muslim extremists.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

How do youa ddress the claims taht the IRA was not religiously motivated and that many Irgun were not particularly devout Jews?
[/QUOTE]

I would say those claims are either mistaken, or irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

The way it has been explained to me was that the Zionists picked palestine not so much because they themselves believed it was some sort of religious imperitive but because a new Israeli state was much more likely to attract a critical mass of jews than the creation of a Jewish state in South America.
[/QUOTE]

The explanation you heard is incorrect. The very word “Zion” has always,
for 1000s of years, specifically referred to the pre-Diaspora Palestinian
Jewish homeland.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

I think that the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue is radicalizing Muslims generally
[/QUOTE]

I agree. What makes Islam such a threat is that so many non-Arab
Muslims are moved to commit murder over an issue affecting them in
no practical, material way. Their demented behavior is the result of
their religious belief. It is as though Christians were terrorizing Muslims
wherever they could find them because of the persecution of Christian
Sudanese.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

(in much the same way that the abortion issue is radicalizing Christians in America generally). I think there is some spillover effect there.
[/QUOTE]

That analogy is unsound because only eight only eight people have been
killed since 1973 by antiabortion Christian terrorism, with I think all but one
death occurring in the US, and no deaths since 2009. Compare that number
and geography to hundreds of thousand of victims of Muslim terror, with
the carnage showing no sign of abating.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

Once again, you seem to be conflating extremist Islam with all of islam.
[/QUOTE]

I have nowhere accused all Muslims if extremism. I think the moderates
are at a great diadvantage because they do not share the extemists’
murderous ruthlessness.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

And do you think that was codespeak for “kill all the Jooz”
[/QUOTE]

I do not know if any Muslims go that far. I think it is likely some do.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

I thought there were Jews of all sorts of ethnicities.
[/QUOTE]

Until the18th-19th centuries Jews were alien resident non-citizens
wherever they lived, a condition which had persisted for about well
over 1500 years. Our of necessity they learned how to speak the
languages of their home countries. At the same time they retained
uniquely Jewish linguistic and religious habits.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

Does the Latin roots of the Romance languages make most of Europe share a lignuistic background that is relevant at all in any meaningful way?
[/QUOTE]

Over 90% of all Europeans speak languages belonging to the Indo-European
family. The Romance languages are one of the three largest surviving major
Indo-European subgroups, the other two being Germanic and Slavic.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

So do you think it is reasonable to assume that all Jews are Zionists?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, if Zionism is taken to mean support for the creation and existence of the
modern Jewish state of Israel.

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]

The Palestinians didn’t set off bombs outside of paestine either… in the beginning. If Jews didn’t get what they wanted in 1948 and the UK had kept their mandate, are you really that sure that Irgun wouldn’t have set off a bomb in the london underground?
[/QUOTE]

Of course I cannot be sure of the events of any alternate history scenario.

Irgun terrorism was the moral equivalent of any other terror. However, it
would not have been an equalent practical threat to modern Islamic terror
merely by extending thier operations to the UK. Thay would have had to go
as far afield as Bali, India, Algeria, the US, etc etc etc.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@magellan01

In other words, if their was no western civilization, their could have been no Holocaust. You know, I think you’re onto something there!

You think that it was Christianity and not the Roman Empire that formed the base of Western Civilization? Do you think civilization would be much different today if it was simply the Roman mepire rather than the holy Roman Empire?

Are you under the impression that the church has been instrumental in the advance of western civilization and technology?

The fact that you think that just because a Christian does something bad that it’s due to his religion is asinine. The same is true of any act committed by a religionist of any stripe. But when the said barbarian commits said atrocity because he thinks his religion compels home to do so and he screams “Allah Akbar” as he is doing it and expects a reward in his version of heaven for doing it, it’s kinda different. Kinda like a puddle in the street is different from the Amazon River.

So you think that the fact that horrible people doing horrible things attribute thos horrible things to their religion is what makes the difference and you think there might be somethign about teh Koran that leads to more atrocities from muslims than others. Right?

Well as far as I can tell, neither the Q’uran, the Bible or the Torah has changed much in the last thousand years of so. So you would expect that the religion based on the bloodthirsty Q’uran would have had an edge on doing fucked up shit over the last thousand years and yet that does not appear to be the case.

You keep saying “yeah but what are they doing today” Well if your prpopsing that there is somethign wrong with the Q’uran then you can’t just take a snapshot of today and say “members of religion A are engaging in a lot more of activity Z than members of religion B, C, D, E and F so there is something wrong with religion A” when the weight of a thousand years of history indicates that members of religion A does not really stand out as doing mroe fucked up shit than the members of other religions.

So either the Q’uran has changed somehow relative to the bible or current trend that you think you see is the result of something other than the words in the Q’uran. Perhaps it has something to do with the geopolitical situation that arose after WWI and the shattering of the ottoman Empire. Perhaps it has something to do with the state of israel. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that we spend almost as much on the military as the rest of the world combined and keep looking for neat ways to use that military.

[Miller]

One question I get a lot as a Pit mod is, “What exactly does it take to violate the ‘no hate speech’ rule in the Pit?” For those that have wondered that, here’s your answer:

@Champion of Truth

I am neither a Democrat or Republican, but I agree with Ann Coulter’s assessment…assassinate their leaders, invade their countries, and convert them to Christianity. Failing that, just nuke the monsters off the face of the earth and be done with it!

Champion of Truth, calling for the genocide of an entire demographic is a violation of our boards prohibition against hate speech. Feel free to continue to vent your spleen over the iniquities of Islam as you perceive it, but do not continue to advocate for their eradication while you are a poster on this board.

Since you’re new here, I’m not going to issue a warning over this at this time.