I think that’s stretching it a bit given that marriage is one of the sacraments of the Catholic Church. It’s fair to say though that the Catholic Church views the sexual act as much more than a physical union. It’s also an act of unity of heart and soul, open to fertility, demanding absolute faithfulness and indissolubility - which is why it is restricted to husbands and wives.
The anti-death penalty stance isn’t absolute. However, the Church does suggest that nowadays situations where the death penalty would be required as the state’s only option for punishing an offender are “very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
Now, Monty, you know as well as anyone that neither the Catholics nor the Mormons officially publish any kind of official excommunication numbers.
I can point you to several sites claiming thousands of excommunications from the LDS church, this being one. The author, one Sterling D. Allan, claims he personally knows 100 excommunicants and indirectly knows of approximately 1000 that were excommunicated between 1991 and 1995 in what the author called “The Mormon Purge”. However, they are not official LDS church sites, so you probably will not accept that as valid.
I personally can’t understand why LDS have a hangup about accepting information that is not on an “official” LDS site. You’re attempting to hold non-LDS to a standard that is unreasonable. For instance, if you wanted to find out about child abuse by priests, would you only look on Catholic-approved sites? If you wanted to find out about whether coffee does bad things to your body, would you visit only Folgers or Yuban’s website? Of course not, that’s ridiculous.
To completely understand something you’re researching, you have to take all viewpoints into consideration. And when facts are unavailable from official sources, sometimes you have to look at other than the party line to find out what’s really going on.
Just your demand for cites, Monty. There are no such cites if you have to stick with “official” sources, so I’m heading you off at the pass, as it were.
Well, I disagree with a lot of that. Lots of people waver in and out of activity in the LDS Church. Who goes to the temple or not isn’t common knowledge–I mean, while I know that many of my fellow congregation members go to the temple, and might carpool there with someone, I would not know if someone did not hold a recommend, and it’s none of my business anyway. I can’t think of anyone who has ever asked me if I have a recommend or when I last attended the temple; it’s just not something you ask about, it’s not done. While I know, vaguely, that quite a few people in my ward don’t go to the temple, I don’t know who they are or why unless they tell me, and I certainly don’t ask.
Neither do we speculate on where we’re going to end up. (Well, I’m sure some do, but again, not a good idea.) We’re hoping that everyone will get what they want. Ask most Mormons if they’re going to the Celestial Kingdom and they’ll say “well, I hope so…”–it’s like Solon (I think) said, you never know until you’re safely dead.
And it’s not that easy to get excommunicated. Annoying your neighbors won’t do it. Adultery and child abuse, yes. Moreover, the news isn’t shared and it’s hoped that people will return.
I’m not going to argue with people about their own religion on this board. My only assertion is that the LDS view of the family and the Catholic view of the family are similar in result but different in motivation. This is in a large part based on their view of the role of the family in the afterlife. There is also a difference in the amount of religious devotion/adherence to doctrine/following rules that is expected out of people in order for them to call themselves members of said religion. Here is Wikipedia’s disputed article about excommunication. I honestly don’t expect you’ll ever find something neutral about the subject.
If you want more information, there are plenty of sources out there and I’m sure you could find some the support just about anything you want to say. The details could be argued endlessly and this isn’t the place for that.
But if the ovum and sperm are from the married couple, it stands to reason they’re probably both functioning and therefore wouldn’t need to artificially conceive, right? I don’t quite understand this statement.
This is pure bunk. I’ve been a member of the LDS church for over 20 years and an actively practicing one for less than five. I’ve never heard the term “council of love” nor did I ever feel uncomfortable in any ward, not even when I was only an occasional visitor.
I’m quite aware of that. However, the instances of those obstacles must be so few in the entire population, much less the mormon population, as to make this ruling virtually useless.
Can you tell me how many mormons have taken advantage of this? I’m sure there’s a record somewhere, but I wouldn’t know where to begin looking for it.
On the other hand, Mormon doctrine is that sexual sins are almost the most serious sins you can commit. Second only to murder. Adultery, after being married in the temple, being the most serious.
Why would there be a record of this? Who would keep such a record, and for what purpose? It’s not like the couple has to go to their local bishop and get a special “In Vitro Permit” or anything like that.
Point of clarification: IANAC, but it’s my understanding (and Wikipedia seems to back it up) that Catholicism prohibits “artificial” contraception but allows “Natural Family Planning.”
Here is a paper about the LDS disciplinary system. Note that sexual transgressions are a major part of the sins that will get a “court of love” convened. One of the things that will get a court of love called is if your sin is widely known (in which case the result can also be made public.)
First, your transgression is discussed in detail with various church officials. Then a meeting is called in front of witnesses. You are expected to confess your sin or present documented evidence against it. There is then a question and answer period and witness can be brought in to support your argument. Then the officials deliver an opinion. This can be either no action, formal probation (mostly being prohibited from certain religious activities), disenfellowship or excommunication. One of the major factors affecting the severity of the outcome is if it involves violating a temple marriage.
This is pretty different from the Catholic procedure. Note I didn’t say worse, just different.
My brother was excommunicated last month for divorcing his wife and telling the stake president (kinda the bishop guy if you were Catholic) that he didn’t believe in certain of the church’s teachings.
My mother was excommunicated for getting a divorce and living with a man.
Two personal friends have been excommunicating for being gay.
Believe me, in Utah it’s no secret of “who’s been bad” and excommunicated members are often treated very badly and are subject to shunning-type behavior. This may be different in California or other parts of the world where the entire culture isn’t pervasively LDS.