I am trying to come up with a laundry of rock-and-roll songs that have the following two features:
– commercially successful as singles, or appearing on a commercially-successful album. For a working definition of successful, let’s go with Gold record/album status and/or an appearance on the American Billboard Top 40 singles chart.
– notable as an especially complex piece of music. I’m open to different varieties of complexity being considered: requiring high viruosity to play, successfully merging many instruments in innovative and/or difficult-to-copy ways, having many distinct movements, etc.
In some ways, commerciality and complexity are probably opposing forces. Rock music has often been a study in repetition, minimalism, and simplicty – and it often seems that the public responds favorably to that.
However, there are certainly some outliers – and that’s what I’m trying to come up with.
My own short personal list so far is pretty much just songs that have distinct movements, such as “Stairway to Heaven”, “Carry on Wayward Son”, “Bohemian Rhapsody” (doesn’t seem to be complex all the way through, though), and “Love Is Like Oxygen”. Then there’s the music of Rush, whose drummer Neil Peart is known for his virtuosity and the complexity of his compositions. Another one is Jethro Tull – their music seemed to me very ambitious, and Ian Anderson’s flute, while perhaps gimmicky, seemed to add a layer of “difficulty” to Tull’s sound.
I know there are many musicians on the SDMB, whereas I myself know little of musical theory – so I was looking to spark up some educated discussion on this topic.
Metallica’s late-80’s output and Tool’s mid-90’s output both fit what you’re looking for, I think.
I’m pretty sure that Morbid Angel’s Covenant has gold status, and that’s still considered the hallmark of technical death metal. But whether you’ll consider that rock n’ roll is another question.
But other than that, you’ve got it exactly right. The music-buying public wants bubblegum pop, and the further something is from that, the less it’s going to sell.
Although I am an active musician, I am a guitarist - which of course means that what I know about theory would fit in a thimble.
Having said that, the first band that comes to mind as having complex chord structures and arrangements is Steely Dan - given the jazz-inflection of their pop, and the quality of the session players involved, they surely fit the bill.
or the Beatles - whether it be the string arrangements of Eleanor Rigby, the looping and layering of tracks on songs like Tomorrow Never Knows and I am the Walrus, they were very complex in their approach to studio work.
Phil Spector’s Wall of Sound - also the Beach Boys around Pet Sounds and SMiLE - Good Vibrations is a wonderfully complex production. And Spector’s layers upon layers approach still turns heads.
I don’t think excessive multitrack layering is the same thing as musical sophistication but then again I don’t think complexity is the neccessarily the same thing either.
Well said Wordman, Steely Dan is also one of the first names that came to my mind. I’ve been fortunate enough to have seen the reunited group twice. Call them jazz if you like but they prove you can rock with more than three chords.
Alan Parsons is one to consider and his first album, Tales of Mystery and Imagination: Edgar Alan Poe, has a lot of the distinct movements you talk about.
Genre-wise, I’m going to second prog- and art-rock as the most complex.
Some metal, as noted above, gets fairly complex as well.
I’m going to throw out the following as fairly damn complex rock pieces:
Jethro Tull - Thick As A Brick. Not the radio version, but the album, which is one song, thoroughly orchestrated, and 43 minutes long.
Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans. Double Album, in four movements. Awe-inspiring in it’s complexity.
Pink Floyd - Dogs, from the album Animals. 17 minutes, stunning arrangements. Far more melodic and song-like than either of the above, but complex enough to make the list.
Phish - most of the earlier albums contain some staggeringly complex arrangements. Most notable are the album Junta, with the most notable songs being You Enjoy Myself, Divided Sky and Fluffhead, and the album A Picture of Nectar, with some amazing stuff including Tweezer, The Squirming Coil, Stash, and Guelah Papyrus (which is a fairly straightforward tune that just happens to contain a 4 minute fugal interlude with incredibly complex countermelodies and chase lines between piano, bass and guitar.
In fact, of anything modern, Phish most likely takes the cake. In classic rock, I’m going with Yes.
Great contributions, all. Thanks for the reminders of Steely Dan ( :smack: ) and the [air-quotes] Alan Parsons Project [/air-quotes].
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[n]picker** – interesting you bring up Phish. I’ve heard something astonishing about Phish’s combined musical virtuosity from a friend who’s a musician and a big fan. My friend told me that each member of Phish can play all the instruments in the band, and that when they rehearse, they often switch instruments to make sure they are all on the same page. Not only will they switch instruments, in fact, I am told that they will each play drums, bass, guitar, etc. at least once during a given rehearsal set – or that they’ll go through a rotation of playing the same song several times, with each member on a different instrument for each iteration.
Yes would be a band that fit into this category. I think Long Distance Runaround and Roundabout were top 40 hits.
Rush has some complicated rhythms, but they stay in 4/4 time most of the time.
I would definitely agree that Steely Dan has some complex arrangements.
Early Chicago, Beginnings,Make Me Smile, *25 or 6 to 4 *are all pretty complicated and were hits.
Dream Theater had one hit Pull Me Under, back in 1992 I want to say and they are very complex and change time signatures as often as Paris Hilton changes sexual partners.
There’s King Crimson. Their first LP, In The Court of the Crimson King, went gold (I think) and some others, like Larks’ Tongues in Aspic and Discipline sold quite well.
There’s also Emerson, Lake and Palmer. Even if now they’re despised by quite a few people, they were technically very gifted and sold a cartload of records! Consider their eponymous LP and Brain Salad Surgery as first purchases.
La Villa Strangiato, in particular, has movements (labelled as such) which have inspired more musicians to say ‘Sure, I know it. I can’t play it…but I know it.’
And saying they write primarily in 4/4 is just fallacy pure and simple.
A casual search shows that Dream Theater has had at least two gold albums, so they qualify here. It’s hard to imagine anything much more complex that’s still listenable.
Yeah, but that could describe Dream Theater’s entire output.
For big sellers, I’d have to say just about anything by The Band, and some of The Who’s albums, especially “Quadrophenia.”
A bit farther down in the sales figures, but still at least gold, I think, Roxy Music put out some pretty sophisticated stuff.
It is true, to an extent. They all do play all the other instruments, but not to the level they play their own. I’ve seen them swap live - they don’t play their really complex stuff, mostly slightly less complicated (or rather requiring less virtuosic ability) stuff, and covers. Still impressive, though, and their altered lineup has more musicianship than half the Top 40 stuff out there.
I think you’ll find that most professional musicians can play quite a few instruments at a pretty high level, and many more at a rudimentary one.
I’m no where near the level of the guys in Phish, but I can still play electric, acoustic and classical guitar, electric and upright bass, mandolin, banjo, piano, drums, percussion (congas & timbales, mostly), and sing lead and harmony, all at a level sufficient to perform professionally.
I would say that most of the pros I’ve met and worked with are similarly talented to one degree or another.
In my current group (a trio) I switch between guitar, mando, banjo and upright depending on the song we’re playing. My bassist switches between upright, cello, and fiddle, with occasional guitar. My banjo player also breaks out the dobro, delta slide guitar, flute and recorder.
And I would consider us merely slightly above average in our genre (bluegrass/old time)