First off, if you provide a link or a source for the article, it will be a lot easier to read.
The phrase “love the sinner, not the sin” makes me nauseous. Religious zealots have been hiding behind that little bon mot (and its more prevalent version, “love the sinner, hate the sin”), spewing intolerance and oppression for homosexuals for a decade or more now. I want you to understand something. Your morals do not deserve to be codified in legislation.
How would you feel if all of a sudden, Orthodox Judaism was the most popular religion in the country? Would you then cave in on all your beliefs, and acknowledge the moral standards and ethics of the most prominent religion? Would you observe Shabbat starting at sunset every Friday, and not work at all during the course of the Shabbat? No TV, no car, no shopping? Would you consider it unclean to eat non-Kosher foods? Would you make certain you son was circumcised, and give him a Bar Mitzvah when he was thirteen? Why not? After all, the tenets and rituals of Orthodox Judaism are a long-established religion, and if they were in the majority in the country, and insisted on codifying their moral code into law, wouldn’t that be all right?
hmm, have the US be a country based on Jewish values? I wouldn’t have a problem with that since I’m half-way there already. I would miss eating real hotdogs and lobster, though
First off, the article has certain copyright laws that affect it, and has no internet URL. If you want I can give you the name of the article, who publishes it etc.
As for the second half of your post, my answer would be: unless they were forbidding me to worship my God in my way, and if that country were America. If jewish laws were that strict, and I lived in a country in which I was not a Jew, then I should be able to accept those laws. In America, those laws would not affect the practice of my religion, unless my religion was seen as being detrimental to theirs. Being homosexual in America is the same thing. If want to be gay in America, you should be adequately prepared to deal with those laws.
Morals are NATURALLY codified in legislation. Thou shalt not kill. Really. Everyone in America as some moral basis, and the majority are based in Christianity.
I think you have another problem with the saying “love the sinner, not the sin.” That would be accepting those out there against homosexuality because they view it as a sin, but those same people who are not violent against gays. Because, after all, if you admitted that there are anti gay rights activists who are non violent you would lose a lot of your valid attacks on hypocracy. WHICH I AGREE WITH. I don’t think the people who murdered Matthew Shepard were right in ANY way shape or form, and I think they will suffer the eternal consequences. You have a problem with accepting that, though, because you feel that if you did, you would be less justified in condemning our morals.
Forgive me if I have a bit of trouble making any sense out of the last paragraph. It’s a little tough to interpret.
So, I should never oppose laws that oppress people who are doing no harm to others, because the laws are based on the baseless prejudices of a religion to which I do not ascribe? And if the majority of a population in a country believes in a religion, the population of that country is then obliged to accept whatever religious doctrine that the church can get passed into law?
And there are some whose morals are based on Jewish law, or on Sufism, Buddhism, Taoism, or on a set of morals that they have codified for themselves. Does the fact that you’re in the majority give you the right to oppress others? Might makes Right, huh? Nice moral code.
I’d first like to point out that I have never accused you of practicing or endorsing violence against gays. I know that there are anti-gay activists who don’t commit or espouse violence. Those same anti-gay activists are in the process of keeping gay people from enjoying the rights that everyone else in this country is entitled to. Do you think that just because you’re not actively beating someone up, you can’t harm them? Do you really believe that the only thing gay people are concerned about is violence?
Try this on for size, Pathros. Imagine if you had to keep your Christianity a secret, or risk your job, your posessions, and possibly your life. Imagine if you were told that your relationship with your wife was meaningless, because it conformed to Christian standards. Imagine if you had to fear, every day, that someone might find out you were Christian, and might take your kids away because of it. Imagine, if you will, a life where someone who thought of themselves as a moral person, could refer to you in an offhand manner as an abomination. That’s the sort of life gay people face in this country, because of you non-violent anti-gay activists. So don’t think you’re not doing any harm. Please keep in mind that we’re all grateful as hell that you don’t advocate ruthless gangs of mindless thugs beating the crap out of us, but that doesn’t mean you’re not hurting people in all these other ways.
Baseless prejudice of a religion? That’s a very bold statement to make about a religion you do not have any faith in. If people do have faith in a certain religion, then that faith has some base. That base would be some form of a deity. Christianity bases their faith in a deity that condemns homosexuality because it perverts creation. Take it or leave it. Obviously you don’t believe in it, so that’s your choice, but in our society today the majority of people DO have faith in that, their laws will reflect that whether you like it or not. I wouldn’t move to a foreign country that promotes freedom, yet I knew at the base of that was a moral code that condemned me. I’m not saying you have any choice to be an American, so perhaps that statement isn’t entirely valid, but it gets a point across nonetheless. As for a country that oppresses people? Gays are not as oppressed as you’d like to think. Granted, gays are not given equal rights when it comes to marriage - and all that encompasses - but you are not as oppressed as you like to think. You can still live a free live to do what you please, with the exception that you cannot enact in an institution that this country views as being an ordinance of God, and seeing as that God would condemn your lifestyle, his followers would not recognize any formal acknowledgement of your bonding. The last time I checked, gays are not being rounded up or do they suffer great persecution. Granted, you do receive harassment for your lifestyle, but to use the word oppression is to give your situation a much more harsher tone than it deserves. If you want to talk about real oppression, talk about how the blacks were treated, or even how immigrants of the past have been treated. I don’t want to go into an exchange about how “bad” you have it, though, unless you really want to push me.
If someone is in the majority it IS their right to want to preserve those morals how they see fit. As for oppression read above for my response to that.
You did not come out and say, “you are violent towards gays,” but you have done everything to insinuate that. Yes, anti gay rights activists ARE doing what they can do keep gay marriage illegal, because they do not want an institution to exist that violates God’s law. You know that. You don’t agree with that. We’ve argued that already, and its just a difference of opinion. do I believe that gays are only concerned about violence? No, and you’ve shown me that gays have to “deal” with much more than violence. But my response, although I know you and every other homosexual disagrees, would be that you chose to that. There’s no debate there, we just have to agree to disagree.
Do you know my denomination of Christianity isn’t even considered Christian by other mainstream “Christians?” I’m LDS (Mormon) and I’ve been denied certain privileges because of my religion. The US government still considers me a member of a cult. People still ostracize me because they think I’m “evil.” I do not keep this a secret. Gays do not either. I choose to be Mormon, and in my mind gays do too. However there’s one thing that Mormons believe in, and that is following the laws of the land. We believe this to be part of God’s commandments. So, if the US country made a law, we would follow it. When the US outlawed polygamy, the church stopped. That’s another debate, however, but I think you can see how I do not have much sympathy for you, other than I feel sorry you see things the way you do, even though in your eyes its simply a part of your persona.
You know, that’s the first time I’ve ever seen anyone claim both majority and minority status in the course of the same post. Let me illustrate:
So, I should respect laws based on the religious tenets of a group considered to be a cult by the US government? I’m confused. And so are you, Pathros.
I do not consider your faith to be baseless; I consider your faith’s prejudices to be baseless. Quote me the passages in the Bible where it condemns homosexuals to eternal disenfranchisement, and I’ll be impressed. But I warn you; I’ve been through the Biblical argument a few dozen times now, and I’m getting pretty good at it. Quote well, and wisely.
You do not qualify to evaluate my oppression. Until you’ve had the crap beaten out of you for holding hands with the wrong person, you’re not qualified. Until you’ve been denied a place to live or a job because you “seemed queer”, you are not the arbiter of justice. You say I’ve brought to your attention some of the ways that gays are disenfranchised; let me bring one more home. I am afraid to hold my boyfriend’s hand. I know it makes him happy, to hold my hand when we’re out together, but I’m scared to. I do it, but whenever his hand is in mine, it’s not just the pleasure of his company I feel, it’s not just the warmth of being near him; it’s also fear for our lives. In my town, a town known for its tolerance, a man was knifed last year. His crime? He stood outside of the wrong kind of coffee shop. The most recent gay-bashing that made the papers was committed by one of our firemen. And before you go spouting your tired refrain of “I don’t advocate violence”, think about this; when you tell people repeatedly that a group of people are abominations, that their actions offend god, that they commit crimes against god for which they go unpunished in our society, how long will it be before someone goes that extra step, and commits violence in the name of your god?
You know, that is wrong in so many ways, it’s astonishing. I don’t think you could be more wrong if you tried. Here’s a little exercise. Name three instances in which the majority of a country’s population supported actions which, in retrospect, are abominations. They pop right to mind, don’t they?
My point, as stated repeatedly, is that it is possible to harm people without violence. Your support of a political policy that marginalizes me and the one I love hurts me. Directly. Undoubtedly. And if you god is truly just, when you are judged, you will be held accountable for all the hurt you have caused in your life.
Oddly enough, I do have some sympathy for you, Pathros. You’ve been so badly misled, you’ve mistaken love for sin, and hate for love. I hope that your god is compassionate, and takes into account that you’re probably trying, in your misguided way, to do good.
I’ve noticed that no-one else is posting in this thread anymore, and private conversations are best done by email. If anyone would like to see this continued in this forum, post something, and I’ll continue this conversation. Otherwise, I’ll leave Pathros to his ignorance.
Hate crimes law is empirically unfair. David Horowitz–the despised by the left former leftist–does recurring columns on this issue here. Note the reference to MTV prominently featured.
I avoid this whole issue by advocating a throw the book approach to all violent crime. Gay, straight, black, white, whoever is violently attacked should be able to get real justice from our system. We don’t need no stinking apartheid legal system. “Apartheid,” means “separateness” in Afrikaans. What could be more separate than looking at the race, sexual orientation, or gender of the parties in meting out punishment? I think “equal justice under law” is fairly ambiguous.
I hate to burst some bubbles but the reason murder is illegal is NOT because it’s in the Bible, it’s because by commmitting murder you are denying someone else their right to ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’.
Even if a majority of people in this country are Christian, that doesn’t mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that those same people share any particular view of homosexuality. Christianity is not one religioin. Are we talking Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox? If Protestant, then what kind? Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal? Episcopalian?
If morals and laws were just a reflection of that particular society’s beliefs then we better get out of afghanistan because we surely dont’ have any right to tell them what to do? Do we? After all, that’s their beliefs.
Nice play on words, you really got me there. No, I have yet to bring up my “denomination” because it was not important until the last post you made. Those “religous tenets” you speak of are shared by all of Christianity. Note how whenever I mentioned laws before I made reference to Christianity, not Mormonism. Nice job of twisting what I said.
Our faiths bases are in God, so you then would consider God to be baseless, and therefore our faith, baseless. If this logic is flawed please let me know. I do understand you feel our faith is prejudice, but the only way you will win this point would be to show there is no God, and thats not the purpose of this thread. Our faith is based in God’s law, and you obviously don’t believe in that law. I keep pushing that points should be dropped because neither of us will win. Reason being either a) its a basis of faith or b) its a matter of difference of opinion.
and you just now mention this? Kudos, but im not getting into a biblical debate, because no matter what I say, you will never agree or believe in it (as you have shown before). In the end it will come down to a matter of semantics or interpretation. I also never said homosexuals were condemned to “eternal disenfranchisement” - I said it was labeled an abomination.
No, thats never happened to me, but what has happened is ive been labeled gay as a teenager, and had the crap beaten out of me because people thought I was gay. As for actions? I cannot speak for anyone else, but when I usually make verbal reference to homosexuality I make sure to always let my audience know that I condemn violence. If I went out spouting “gays are going to hell,” and that were it, then you would be right. I do not. I will usually label homosexuality a sin, but always make reference to keeping perspective and how one sin doesnt justify another.
The people in power of this country have deemed, and with religous base, their morals to be justified. Theres the difference. Religion. Yes im sure you can quote religion in other instances, but if you dislike our religous morals, then youd be better off fighting religion than advocating gay rights.
its obvious you wont respond to this, so as you are giong to leave me with my “ignorance” im going to leave you with your “lack of faith.”
So, yes, Pathros, I am going to respond to you. You’ll notice that two others have posted to this thread since I wrote that; that fulfils my conditions for an ongoing debate. And it proves a point; you read what I wrote, I assume, and then misinterpreted it as an exit from the conversation. Isn’t it funny how easily one can misinterpret writings? Wonder what other writings are being misinterpreted these days? Heck, if you can get that wrong, I wonder if people could make as big a mistake as, say, interpreting “love thy neighbor as thyself” as an invitation to judge others, discriminate, and spread prejudice?
As to your claim that your bias is shared by “all of Christianity”, think again. There are plenty of people on this board alone who are Christians, and believe in treating all human beings with respect and dignity. They believe that my actions in loving another man are only to be judged by God, not by other fallible human beings. They spread enlightenment and love, instead of jingoistic ignorance. You could learn a lot from them.
You see, Pathros, not to torch your cherished strawman or anything, but I don’t have anything against religion, yours or anyone else’s for that matter. I’ve actually seen religion make an enormous positive difference in people’s lives, make them happier, better people. What I decry is the facet of your religion that causes you to feel the need to denigrate people who do others no harm. I wouldn’t wish the absence of religion on the world; what I am working towards is a greater degree of tolerance and understanding. You remember; those are Christian principles, right?
You say your faith is based on God’s law; I say your prejudices are based on a misinterpretation of God’s word. I’m sure most of the ideals you follow are noble and right; in this case, you’re causing harm to harmless people, in the name of your God. What sort of God demands that?
So you were beaten as a teenager, for just the suspicion that you were gay. How did that make you feel, Pathros? Imagine living in fear of that, or worse, all the time. Tell me, why do you think the people that beat you did that? Do you think they saw you as another human being, with your own way of thinking, your own rights to personal safety? Or do you think they saw you as an abomination, a sinner? Do you think that spreading that sort of bigotry, as you have done here in this thread, isn’t encouraging more of the same?
I asked you to name three instances in which the majority of a country’s population supported actions which, in retrospect, are abominations. Your answer:
Do you really believe the teachings of your religious leaders to be infallible? Do you really think that they are completely, totally right in their interpretation of the word of God? Do you really think that faith in your religion’s righteousness leads only to good, and never to evil?
Tell you what, Pathros. Here’s another exercise. Can you name a recent event that, while inspired by faith in religious teachings, caused great harm to innocents? You see, it can happen. Faith can lead you astray, unless it is tempered with mercy and justice and tolerance.
And I’d be very interested in seeing your response to Oblong’s post as well.
And as to my lack of faith, I assure you I have plenty of faith. Faith in a God that has love for all of His children, and hatred for none. I’ll put my God up against yours any day.
I would like to start out saying your post about MTV is absolutely right on the mark! I could not have stated it any better…someday I hope this country’s left wing operatives will stop pissing on our backs while telling us its raining. While reading some of the replies to your post, don’t let the convoluted rhetoric about intolerance stop you from thinking as you do. Circular thinking is what the left is best at. With that said, Rant on and heres another WHACK!!! for MTV!
“MTV, which filled my teenage years in the early 80s as a cool form of entertainment, has degenerated into an extreme left wing propaganda arm of the Media Lords”.
“But just check out who runs MTV, and you wont be surprized why.”
I just wanted to say that this copy of a post is how I see MTV and the direction it has taken.
At this time in our nations history there is no time for agendas or pity parties from these crybabies. It’s time to pull together as a nation and support Mr. Bush. No bullshit, I mean hey, if congress can do it, seems MTV could at least try.
this is growing tiresome. I was not the one who made this into a “what makes homosexuality wrong” thread. You have been pushing me, and namecalling me to the point where I have responded so taht im not “spreading love.” easy for you to sit there and say im not spreading love, when all im doing is defending my morals. As for the different forms of christianity, they all share common ground, morals being one of them. I used murder as an example. Just, an example. I really don’t want to go through all the laws that deal with a fundamental christian motif, but lets look at why gay marriage isnt recognized. Exactly. You dont agree with it, SO MOVE ON WITH IT. Im really growing tired of being labeled as ignorant, and prejudiced when you have not shown to the effect, or proven how much of an ignorant bigot I am. Your response would be, of course, “no pathros, you’ve done that for yourself.” How? Because I find homosexuality wrong? Lets examine WHY I view it wrong. It violates the laws of creation. Simple as that. I do not base this because “homosexuals are icky” or I feel uncomfortable around them, or any other reason that would make me ignorant. If having faith is ignorant in your mind, then so be it. Theres one thing you should know. Even though I do not agree with homosexual lifestyles, that does not mean I dont respect homosexuals. Of course, in your mind I dont, because I dont agree with allowing gay marriage, but lets look at this: why would I quote a gay rights activist? hmm? why? Why, when im struggling in one of my classes, go to a tutor who is openly gay? hmm? why when I could always find another alternative.
You see me degenerating your people by denying rights. If that is what degenerating is, then im guilty of it. Otherwise, I dont go around calling gays, “fagots” or “Fudge packers.” I understand homosexuality. I do not agree with it. I feel this so much that I feel if I were to stand by and allow it to be recognized by our government I would be forsaking my morals. End of story.
In your mind, its a misinterpetation, in my mind, its not. Theres no debate there. Is that prejudice? If my misinterpretations of Gods law are such, then its prejudice. If not, then im right. Simple as that. As for harming harmless people, its not the people thats the goal, its the institution of gay marriage. Gays find it harmful when they are not recognized in their bonding, I would find it harmful for my morals to be degrated like that. Why? Slippery Slope.
No, it was because they were intimidated by me. My test scores and ability to articulate dwarfed them. I know a lot of gays who are very intelligent and have that same effect. People simply dont like being shown up. I, dont have a problem with it. Why would I have a gay student tutor me if I did?
I never said got hates homosexuals. Ive responded to oblongs post. Do I believe their interpretatiosn infallible? No, but does that mean that I accept it blindly? no.
You know what? Pathros_1983? Why the Hell do you bother to argue with this individual? You have said over and over again how you feel, gave that individual their right to their feelings and yet you still get hammered for your feelings and moral direction. It is the way of this frigged up world it seems to always default on the side of the “cause” of homosexuality and its “rights”…Civil Liberties my ass!! There is nothing “Civil” about labeling me “homophobic” or having you or I defend ourselves just to give this happy horse shit more creedence. Simply by having a high moral standard you are taken to task and told how you are lacking. Thats complete crap and I am sick of having this shit slammed down the throats of people who are not homosexuals. See? you started this thread with a post about something you saw on MTV and its blatant mis use of its medium to reach impressionable minds and it gets turned into a pity party for homosexuality. When does it ever end!! Good Luck man…stand tall because someday we all get a chance to get the answers and I dont believe we all go to the same place to get them! LOL… You have made yourself very clear to me, and I agree.
Well, Pathros, it seems I’ve got you so upset that your grammar, punctuation, and reasoning are all pretty seriously impaired. Why are you so bothered? After all, you have the moral high ground here, right? You’re the one that’s defending your moral code, right? The one that advocates labelling innocent people as abominations and as sinners?
Which laws of creation? Be specific. Show evidence. If you want to base laws on your moral code, and you claim your moral code comes from God himself, I want a cite. Simple enough request.
So, there is a possibility that you’re wrong then? That you’re basing your denial of human rights to a minority population in this country on a fallacy? Which would you rather be able to say to your God:
“I’m sorry, I was wrong in my interpretation of your law, and I caused harm to some of your children.”
Or
“I’m sorry, I thought you might have wanted me to treat the gay people as subhuman, but not being certain, I treated them just like any other of your children, with respect and dignity.”
Which do you think would a loving god hold against you?
You’ll recall I asked: When I have sex with my boyfriend, who am I hurting?
Your reply:
So, the next question is, if society accepts what I do with my boyfriend (it’s called sex) as “ok”, then how does that hurt people? And, specifically, which people does it hurt?
Oh, and hello, TiredofCrap. Lovely user name, however ironic.
If you were capable of understanding the debate in this thread, it might have registered that I was taking Pathros to task because of his actions, not his feelings.
Now go play with the other kids your age, would you? We’re kinda busy here.
So, Pathros… is this the kind of guy you like to have on your side?
Tired of Crap is right about one thing, and that was that this thread has veered far off from the OP. Are personal insults really all that necessary though?
No, I just wrote that post right after doing a bunch of other stuff which tasked me mentally, so I wasn’t as focused on the details. As for labeling innocent people as abominations? Well, in your eyes you are innocent. In my interpretation, your actions are not. Duh, we’ve gone over that. Feels like we’re beating a dead horse here.
Okay, since you’ve gotten into the biblical debate before, im going to assume that you have a basic knowledge of the bible. Therefore im not going to bother looking up exact references. If that’s the game you want to play, we can take this into another thread. Basically, the Genesis story goes like this. (I’m not going over the whole thing but I think you can get the jest of it) God creates Man, God Creates Woman. God commands Man and Woman to multiply and replenish the Earth. God creates these two, in that biologically they are counterparts. God did not create two men, or two women. One Man, one Woman, and these are a part of a family. That family, being a creation of God and one of Gods sacred things. Why? Ok so you know the basic part of Genesis here, but going beyond that, we see in the bible many references to marriage as being sacred. Laws about chastity, and adultery, and such. When God created the first two beings, and they were bonded, they were one man, one woman. I could go on here. In the laws of OT, homosexuality was punishable by death. Do me a favor. If you decide to nit pick this, or rip into my interpretation, then start another thread concerning homosexuality and the bible and post its URL on your response. Then, will I be more specific to the point. Yes, I was vague, but only to show a generalization of this moral code. Not to show if my moral code is justified by the bible. You want to question my moral code, then start another thread.
Interesting language. You can be very insulting when you address what I say, so much as to give way to any real credibility. “you’re basing your denial of human rights.” Human Rights? Gays are not denied the basic necessity of life. They are, denied certain institutions. Denied Equal rights for marriage, yes. Human rights, no. Its very tiresome to see you consistently play yourself as the poor abused gay man who everyone must take pity on. What about the neglect of what I consider to be valid, honest, and part of God’s law? You can’t have both obviously, but we’ve covered all of this already.
A loving God. Brilliant. God loves all his children, but does not condone all of their actions. I cannot speak for God, all I can do is speak for my interpretations of his laws. What would I do if, as you say, I’m wrong? As I said, I cannot speak for God, but if I have to guess as to what I would say, I would tell him that my faith was in that law, and my interpretations. You do not know my faith. You cannot begin to question my testimony because you have never felt what I have felt about the bible. Obviously. Stop this crap of, “so how do you live with yourself knowing you treat gays as subhuman? how can you face god knowing you are ignorant and prejudiced and a bigot who openly wanted to hurt Gods children?” The last time I checked, I do not openly persecute gays, throw rocks at gays walking down the streets, or deny them food or do anything detrimental to their life. I do, however, advocate legislation denying them equal rights in marriage. I really don’t need to answer why, because I already have. Is that treating them subhuman, and a showing of my ignorance and prejudiced towards them? If I view those actions as being a sin, then I cannot advocate an institution that would make that sin equal to me. Is it prejudiced and ignorant? If you consider faith and moral standards ignorant, then so be it. My definition is not quite the same. Note how I have YET to call you ignorant for not sharing in the same faith as me. Yet you continuously label me as such for holding this faith. Like I’ve said before, you cannot begin to question my testimony, because you know nothing of my spirituality.
You can have sex with your boyfriend all that you want. There are some states, which consider it illegal, but otherwise I don’t care. After all, I cannot stop you and your agency. Perhaps I need to clarify though. When I said society would accept you having sex with your boyfriend, I meant legitimizing it through an institution such as marriage, then I meant it would harm people. It would harm how my moral standard and how it is looked upon by others. If a society thus allows gay marriage, then it says that my faith in my God is wrong. Okay, so that’s taking it a bit too far, but I really don’t care if gay men have sex. Its marriage that I have a problem with. So let me re address your comment about gay men having sex. Who does it harm? Physically, no one.
One last thing, look at TiredofCrap’s post count. He/she is new to the SDMB and thus not used to it, so give him/her some slack about it. After all, they were right about this thread going off track.
Vis, I just wanted to let you know that you’ve got a bunch of cheerleaders in the back. I don’t know about the rest of us, but I just haven’t had the emotional strength to do this dance yet again. <sigh>
So I’m a Christian. I’m also a lesbian. Now, the woman that I have been dating since we both were sixteen- we’ve been accosted by “Christians” who actually tried to perform an exorcism and drive out our homosexual demons. They felt their actions were entirely justified because they viewed homosexuality as a sin. All things considered, I would have rather been beaten up.
I attend a Methodist church where the (heterosexual) pastor is extremely gay-friendly and has announced his intention to perform same-sex unions as soon as they are allowed. Right now he serves as an advocate within the church and the district.
Now I know several gay Mormons as well as heterosexual Mormons who are gay-friendly. Just saying.
