Wow, Esprix. That’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever said about me in the Pit. Thanks. I’m looking forward to seeing what you have to say after reading the thread thoroughly; I don’t envy you though. A lot has been said.
Speaking of, I’m hoping we haven’t lost Pathros. I suggested he take a couple of days off from this little debate, but it’d be a shame if he didn’t return. It’s nice having the opportunity to explore his arguments, and solidify my opposition to them. It’s rare, in my experience, to find someone who holds his views who can express them coherently.
I was really all set to rip into this guy, but in all honesty if this is how he really feels ( opposed to just leading the liberals in the thread on to lull us into a false sense of security while he gets us to divulge enough information about ourselves so he can alert the HomeLand Security people in Texas as to where all the queers in America live), then I have to admit that his statement quoted here is how I live my life as well. I’m so far to the Left it’s not funny. I’m a Jewish Quaker pacifist with lesbian and gay friends galore and kids that aren’t white even though I am white. One sentence up there is the distillation of my entire outlook on life, to be honest. It’s a basis of action versus thought. That’s right.
We enjoy the SDMB because of diverse ideas. I may find this poster to be so despicable in his thoughts and perspectives that I’d never be caught dead in a room with him. But the truth is, I may be sitting at the next table from him in a restaurant one day, listening to him spew these sentiments, and he’s got just as much right to the thoughts as I have to mine. Might make it hard to finish my grits, but that’s another thread.
Evil and hateful thoughts and desires sicken me deeply, and yet this is the same country that guarantees the rest of us our right to express our views. I may hate the way this guy thinks, but I love the rights that guarantee his ability to express those thoughts with words, instead of with a lynching rope or burning cross.( just to provide to abstract examples.)
<-----Smiling grimly. THAT’LL fucking teach me to post into a thread before reading to the very bottom of it. Good lord love a duck, what a piece of work he is.
Boy, he sure went downhill fast, now didn’t he? Well, I do indeed believe in his rights to free speech but having read the rest of his hateful magma, gushing slowly and hotly from the raw open sore that is his oral orifice, it’s pretty obvious that if he were left in a room with three gay men and a baseball bat, the last thing he’d try to do is get up a game of pepper.
IMHO there’s a difference between a spirited debate and inciting to riot, and good 'ole boy Pathros lost me right here for good:
.
You cannot separate people from marriage. It’s not an abstract concept. It’s force of spirit combined with flesh and blood. And not for nothing, but gays are routinely beaten and/or killed for their bonding, when’s the last time you were taken out and had the living shit beaten out of you for being LDS? You find it harmful that your morals are degraded? Cool- then don’t become homosexual. :wally
And, then there’s this little gem
This is rather amusing, since a Member here took the time to show you just how atrocious your articulation has been in this thread by composing a post that detailed same. Hypocrite. If your ability to articulate dwarfs those who beat you up then damn boy, you need to do something about the public schooling in your home town.
Pity that Banning didn’t stick. You go on now and scamper back to your Church and tell them tomorrow morning what a good job you did defending the teachings of Joseph Smith ( even though from what I know of LDS, you’re doing a hellacious job of distorting it).
<—Wishing that I had the ability to remove a post. As I said, that’ll teach me to write before reading all the way to the bottom. Damn it. :mad:
but I want to make a few comments on this thread. Rather ironic that I am posting here given that I’ve never seen MTV.
I am LDS. My world views, lifestyle, posting content and style are most certainly influenced by how well I understand my religon and how convicted and diligent I am about practicing my faith. However, I do not speak for the entire membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and my comments do not always accurately reflect church doctrine or practice and the same applies to Pathros_1983.
I am deeply concerned that his posts are being perceived as the LDS viewpoint, when in fact they are only one LDS persons viewpoint. Like a previous poster mentioned, I find it difficult to completely read through his posts. Unlike another poster, I do not find him particularly articulate when posting about doctrine or practice of his faith. I believe his understanding and practice of the teachings of the church to be immature. (Yes, I realize the irony involved in my making such a judgemental remark. I am human.)
The above is Pathros_1983 speaking, not LDS doctrine.
<snip for space> I agree with MrVisible.
“Love for all of His children, and hatred for none.” I believe we worship the same God MrVisible.
Nor does the OP speak for all LDS people.
I know you didn’t ask me, but Jr. High. It does happen. Persecution, bigotry and hatred are still persecution, bigotry and hatred whether directed at people for sexual orientation or for religous beliefs.
Ugh, Toonie, You know I love you, but this hurts. Our meetings are not at all like that. Also a nitpick, Joseph Smith had little to say, if anything, regarding homosexuality. (I’m fairly well versed, but not a historian or scriptorian.)
My understanding as and LDS person trying to live the gospel of Jesus Christ is that it is about love, compassion and acceptance for all people and it hurts me deeply when my faith is so ill perceived.
Not to worry, AbbySthrnAccent. Judging from the responses Pathros has been receiving here, I wouldn’t think anyone is perceiving him as the face of LDS.
I havent replied to this post for the following reasons: I’ve grown tired of repeating myself.
I’ve grown tired of seeing the same attacks against me. I’ve grown tired of the immature name calling, and personal insults directed towards me.
I’ve grown tired of my words being misinterpreted, and the fact that the purpose of the OP has been lost long ago.
I’ve grown tired of this thread.
Hence, why I was not going to respond and let the post die out. Obviously that did not work.
It has been the consensus that when I make a post on this thread, I speak with the intent of speaking for every Christian. Wait, that was every LDS, right? I never claimed to speak or be an official representative of the LDS church or Christianity in general. I assumed, and wrongfully so, that people would understand this. Apparently, they did not. I have seen people on the SDMB speak from certain perspectives and never before have other dopers assumed they these posts were universal truths for people who shared that background. Hence, not all Christians believe the same thing. Gee, did I not say that? How there’s a difference between liberal and conservative Christians? I posted a site that outlined different Christian views about homosexuality.
Thank you AbbySthrnAccentfor your post. I know I havent been articulate in this thread. Hell, I admitted to that a LONG time ago. For the sake of defending myself, my abilities to articulate are verbal, not writing.
I’m not going to respond to the prior posts like I have before, instead I am going to make a general comment.The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is opposed to discrimination against homosexuals. However, it is also opposed to gay marriage, and as emarkp said in a prior post, any LDS who disagrees with this is not in sync with teachings of the church. Whether or not that constitutes as excommunication is not my decision. I should have not used the word “excommunication” in an earlier post. Since writing the OP I have talked to several bishops about this, and even showed them the site. They have pointed out several incongruencies in my posts, and most of them have been my choice of words, and implied meaning.
I was out of line when I said “thinking gays are subhuman is not wrong.” Yes, its wrong. Thinking of any person as being subhuman is bigoted and hateful. Thinking homosexuality is a sin, and thinking gay marriage is not in sync with God’s law is NOT wrong. Its a matter of opinion, and religous belief. I’m suprised no one caught me on that before, especially since I’ve said quite often “love the sinner, not the sin.” Someone cannot live by that motto and think gays are subhuman; its a blatant contradiction. A contradiction that I made, and I apologize for that. I do not worship a God that promotes hate, and I find it disgusting to see posters such as Mr. Visible and AbbySthrnAccent imply that I worship a hateful God. If I have made that unclear before, or if I have said something false let me clear it up now: I worship a God that loves all his children and is merciful to everyone. Does that mean this God accepts homosexuality because he is charitable, loving, and that he would not condemn someone for loving someone else? In my opinion thats a blatant misinterpretation of his teachings and his doctrine. Does that mean all gays are going to hell? No, and I cannot begin to pass judgement, but I can live my life in accordance to his law and his teachings. Since I follow the LDS church, that means I cannot accept gay marriage. I do not know AbbySthrnAccent and cannot begin to judge her, but if she finds no fault in homosexuality (I mean action, not thought) then she is not in sync with LDS doctrine. If you find my viewpoints on homosexuality to be prejudiced AbbySthrnAccent then ask your bishop what the church’s opinion about it is. I tried to convey all along that the church is a loving one, but do not pervert the word love to mean acceptance of sin. The LDS church does promote an acceptance of all people, and so do I. I quote a gay rights activist in my OP, and had a tutor who was gay. I do not accept their lifestyle, and along with the LDS church do not accept gay marriage.
Pathros: So you’ve said that gays aren’t subhuman. That’s laudable. Do you still believe that homosexuality is an abomniation? Remember, you said this:
I believe homosexuality is an abomination, but I do not believe homosexuals are human abominations. Remember, when I say homosexuality, I imply action. (read that URL I posted last, that explains a lot of what I believe about action v. thought in reference to homosexuality.)
On the contrary, I was not trying to imply anything about you, I was commenting that MrVisible’s “Faith in a God that has love for all of His children, and hatred for none” sounds and feels very familiar to how I personally interpret and perceive God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
I disagree with your opinion, Jesus Christ teaches charity, compassion and love. It is not about condemnation. Christ’s great suffering at Gethsemane and on Golgotha is all about making a way for every single one of us sinners (no matter what the sin, or whether or not we agree on what actions and/or thoughts are sins) to return to God’s presence, if we wish.
I’m awfully tired, but I am certain that I made no comment at all regarding homosexuality one way or the other, so your contention that I am out of sync with LDS doctrine is baseless. Are you asking if I am a member in good standing? The answer is yes, and my Bishop and Stake President agree. Furthermore, I read the article you refer to below when it came out. I have copy of the Proclamation on the Family and have read it and understand it and heard or read many conference talks on it. I read the scriptures regularly. I don’t need to see my Bishop to understand the Churches position and teachings on same gender attraction, nor do I need to consult him to recognize prejudiced remarks when I see them.
Originally posted by Pathros_1983
Does that mean this God accepts homosexuality because he is charitable, loving, and that he would not condemn someone for loving someone else? In my opinion thats a blatant misinterpretation of his teachings and his doctrine.
[/quote]
I disagree with your opinion, Jesus Christ teaches charity, compassion and love. It is not about condemnation. Christ’s great suffering at Gethsemane and on Golgotha is all about making a way for every single one of us sinners (no matter what the sin, or whether or not we agree on what actions and/or thoughts are sins) to return to God’s presence, if we wish.
[/quote]
I agree that Jesus taught charity and compassion. Note that I said homosexuality and not homosexuals. Is that where the mixup was? Or do you believe that Christ would accept homosexuality? (Even though the church denounces it, and elsewhere in the bible it is condemned. Of course, one may not interpret that, but since you are LDS I would assume you follow LDS interpretations)
Sorry If I was unclear. I said IF you find no fault in homosexuality. I could not tell either way by the tone of your last post, and obviously you made no direct remark about it. I did not mean to question your standing in the church or your knowledge of the gospel, but As for recognizing my prejudice? I believe your comment was directed at when I said this:
Perhaps I should have omitted “where gays have respected positions of power.” Denying anyone the opportunity to prove themselves based on something such as their sexual preference is prejudiced. I’m sure there are many gays in society that hold public office, and do a good job of it. I wouldnt deny someone that opportunity based solely on their sexual orientations, and neither does the church. However, when their lifestyle is accepted, then I would have a problem with it. THAT is church doctrine, and if you have a problem with that, and view that idea as being prejudiced then id say consult your bishop. (not on your ability to understand doctrine, but whether or not you accept it.) If you don’t, then disregard that statement.
Hey, that’s okay. We’ve grown tired of you too !!! We’ve grown tired of watching a supposedly articulate educated adult call homosexuals sub-humans. We’ve grown tired of watching entire groups of society be attacked by you. We’ve grown tired of your hawkish loathesome sickening despicable hatemongering. We’re tired of being condescended to with quotes like the one I just used here. So hey, I sure can relate, Brother, because you know what? I’m tired of you too.
Abby, I owe YOU an apology, I didn’t mean to imply in any way that anyone would actually approve of his racist rantings if he were indeed to go and present them to his fellow LDS members in temple. It was a slam at his need to spew forth his hatred and have the world listen.
It’s a terrible distortion of faith- what this person is presenting. He is the very antithesis of those people I know who are very serious in their LDS religious beliefs, and take their faith seriously, and allow their faith to flow through them. He uses his “faith” for outwards attacks and personal aggrandizement, most others ( yourself included ) don’t use your faith at all, it uses you. It’s an inner force that brings you and your God closer to one another. I admire and respect that, and in no way wished to align you with the likes of him.
If it helps any, I’ve gotten in to some awful arguments IRL over how deeply racist some of the Jews in my town are, and I’m Jewish. Evil wears many cloaks, after all.
Or, to put my feelings more succinctly ( since this IS the BBQ Pit ), then you are cordially invited to get the fuck off the planet. :wally
Or alternately, you’re invited to FIND that society you so dearly pine for as stated above. Good luck. Homosexuals are and always have been a part of HUMANITY not, as you love to say, sub-humanity.
Yes, yes, I read your " qualifiers" that you wrote after posting this. So, it’s fine to spew the most disgusting hateful garbage, as long as you can go back later and try to couch it in some quotation marks and modify and qualify those hateful statements? Okay, gotcha. Interesting way to live your live.
You’re not an embarassment to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you’re an embarassment to Humanity.
That does precisely dick squat to improve your postion. How can you not view a person as an abomination if you think what he enjoys is an abomination?
And judging from your action v. thought dichotomy, you would seem to be implying that homosexuals should stay in the closet. Why deny them the pleasure of being themselves in public?
If you and other posters were so tired of it, why did you start the contention in the first place? (not that YOU did, you are relatively new to this thread.) Speaking of which, this thread was not about me attacking any particular group or singling out anyone. It became an attack on my beliefs, and obviously I did not fully clarify what those beliefs were. Other dopers such as emarkp have clarified that, but the point remains I was not the one who started a “gays are evil and must burn in hell” thread. So that pretty much nullifies your idea of me hatemongering. How is it hateful in the first place to want to defend and uphold your own values? Why is it Im such a bigoted and hateful person because I find homosexuality wrong and do not condone gay marriage? Remember, I view homosexual actions to be choice, not a birth right. (I can’t find a better word for it, sorry).
Since you are the genius of LDS theology, how have I distorted the LDS faith? Remember, I have made several revisions to what I said, and already I have admitted to several mistakes. My last 2 posts clarified that along with a URL that I posted. As for using my faith to attack people? I never once used it to attack another doper. I used it to show why I am against gay marriage, and yes, attack gay marriage. That is an offical LDS church doctrine; a doctrine I have faith in. Im disgusted at being labeled such a hateful person when NONE of you know me. You do not know my heart, and do not know my actions. If you consider my earlier posts on this thread to be hateful, then I suggest you look at the past several. They are greatly revised, and I would want you and other dopers to know that it was not my intent to sound hateful, and I do not have hatred towards gays.
Alright I already apologized and modified what I said. I do not take back, however, how I would not support gay marriage. Calling gays subhuman was out of line. I SAID THAT ALREADY. So I’m an embarassment to humanity for being against gay marriage? What makes YOU more right about it than me?
Finally, to address Derleth. Read that URL. It answers your question directly.
According to what you CLAIM to be your religious doctrine, you have not. Fortunately, we have other LDS Dopers who have offered much more thoughtful interpretations of doctrine.
That’s actually a question worthy of it’s own thread. Each one of us defines what we feel to be racist, hateful, dangerous, threatening, etc. We all have different tolerances and so while you may express hate and loathing, as long as you don’t threaten anyone directly, you can just go right on spouting the views that have been quoted and attributed to you in this thread. You obviously do not find it bigoted OR hateful to hold those views. I don’t agree at all, but have to respect your right to say it. I just wish you were saying it on that fantasy planet of yours where there are NO HOMOSEXUALS for you to have to encounter, you poor dear. :rolleyes:
You are entirely correct here. Welcome to the Internet !! Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board. See, here on the Internet, we don’t sit around face to face and get to know each other. We use the power of words to convey our feelings and ideas. You used your words like a bludgeon, and were every bit as articulate as you wished to be. Seems to me that you are just irked you are being called on the carpet for it. It’s true, we do not know your actions. We do know your heart, you’ve used that power of words to show us- and proclaim it to be your faith and belief system. I personally refuse to believe it is indeed doctrine to feel the hate you feel, but I’m also entitled to my reactions.
So, I’m a gay man and married to another gay man. Yet, you claim that you haven’t attacked another doper. Really? Are you SO sure that your words aren’t taken personally by ANY of the 15,000-odd Dopers who have read your words? ( Not to mention thousands more who can read, but aren’t Members yet). It’s irrelevant whether or not I am gay, or straight or anything at all. You did indeed attack people. What- you can’t scroll up and read your own spewings from a few days ago??
You were joking here, right? Tell me you were joking. :rolleyes: NOTHING makes me more right than anyone else here, but you are so deeply convinced of the righteousness of your twisted hate of all things not pure and Heterosexual, that it’s just appalling. And you know what? I do not care one whit if you " revised" and “modified and apologized”. You’re not a 4 year old. You knew perfectly well what you wrote. My take on it is that you were testing the waters to see how many people would jump on your bandwagon, and allow you to continue the hatemongering. Guess you were disappointed, huh?
Look, I’ve no great love for a lot of Jews either, they don’t have some corner on saintly behavior OR tolerance towards homosexuals. ( I’m Jewish ;j )I don’t have any love for ANYONE who wants to label a group, and make them go away just because they don’t fit into a particular " doctrine ".
History has taught us many things, and one of those things is that attempting to make groups of people go away only allows the monsters of humanity to reign. Not for very long, but it does allow that. I chose to use my words to battle that kind of evil, regardless of religion. You better believe, my LDS adversary, that if you were a Jew I’d be on your back every BIT as much as I am here. You’re not perfect. I’m not perfect. Deal with it. But, stop trying to make the less-than-perfect humans go away.
Regard my sig line to complete my sentiments on the subject.
It’s a shame you aren’t man enough to just admit that your point of view is a direct threat to the way of life of many people in the world. You feel good about that point of view? Hey, fine, as long as you don’t physically act on those urges. It’s interesting that you just can’t stand up and admit it.
Eh…no. Exactly HOW are these people “treating” gays as subhuman? They stand up and spout off their opinions. As the OP pointed out, EVERYONE has the the right to do that, no matter what they think.
There is no interpretation of Doctrine in the LDS church; it is one universal interpretation. Hence, why I have revised some of my earlier comments. They were not entirely in harmony with the LDS teachings, and I was corrected. The site I posed IS perfectly in sync with LDS teachings and beliefs, and no one, not even another LDS, can argue against that. As for other “thoughtful interpretations,” the only way for you to agree on anything that the LDS do is for it to be in accordance to what you believe.
Look at my reasoning for why I do not find my views as being hateful or bigoted. I’ve already addressed in a prior post about being hateful, but for bigoted, if I view homosexuality as being a choice (action, not thought) then its not bigoted to look down upon that action. You obviously do not agree with that, because you don’t see anything immoral with your action. It’s simply a difference of opinion.
I would expect a little more intelligence out of you, cartooniverse. I’ve already noted how I have respect for some gays, and I interact with people who are homosexual. I do not condone their actions, though. I do not think a world exists where someone doesn’t have a pornographic thought, homosexual thought, or any type of sexual arousal. Just because someone has those thoughts, though, doesn’t mean they have to act upon them.
Yes, you ARE entitled to your reactions, and thank you for being one of the first to defend my right to believe what I want. Putting that aside, you still do not know my heart. To say I use doctrine to feel hate is ludicrous. If that were true I would be supporting the open persecution of gays, and I would condone violence against them. I do not. In your mind, and in the minds of other gays, because I do not support gay marriage, and in fact condemn it, I am a hateful person. My reason for condemning gay marriage is not based on hate. I DO believe that Christ died and atoned for our sins, but one still has to follow his commandments. I DO believe that his doctrine is based on love. I also believe in the things mentioned on that site, and therefore cannot condone gay marriage. I believe it to be a perversion of his teachings to say gay marriage should be allowed because those two people “love each other.”
No more than you and others have attacked me. You yourself even admitted that you can be more insulting. Others have been more insulting than you. I did not resort to PERSONAL attacks against another doper. If someone wants to equate what I’ve said as an attack on people as a whole, then that’s their interpretation. It was not my intent.
I don’t care if you give any credit to my “modifications and apologies.” That was to clarify LDS beliefs. Yes, I know what I said, but as you so boldly said earlier this is the internet. Things can come across differently than intended. As for your latter comment, a poster by the name of TiredofCrap DID jump on my “bandwagon” but I did not glory in it. Stop this crap of hatemongering. READ THE OP. It was not my intent to persuade people that gays are “evil.” All of my comments towards homosexuality have been because someone else has attacked my ideas, and I defended them. Because you chose to be homosexual, (whether or not its a choice is irrelevant) then you choose a lifestyle not in sync with my beliefs. Obviously, whenever I say something that attacks that lifestyle you and whoever else will try to label my conservative rhetoric as being hateful and bigoted.
There are SO many more problems in society than just gay marriage. I’m not talking about problems that can be solved with legislation. I’m talking about simple character flaws that humans have because its one of the intricate parts of being a human. It is NOT my goal to make all the “less-than-perfect” humans go away. If that were true, I would nit pick at every imperfection alive. I would also have to include myself because I am not perfect. Why do I chose gay marriage, then? Because marriage is something I consider to be sacred, and gay marriage destroys that sanctity.
Duh, I don’t think your lifestyle is morally acceptable. I’ve already admitted that I find my views threatening to your lifestyle because I find that lifestyle immoral. If I haven’t then I’m doing it now. Its already been addressed by Mr.Visible that I have no right to enforce my morals onto you. Hence, why I cannot force you to not have sex with your boyfriend. I can, however, uphold my morals by opposing gay marriage.
I’m a heterosexual male. I’ve been married for over 16 years. I have two adopted children. My life is filled with gay friends and co-workers of both genders. Word up, homeboy. Kinda takes the wind RIGHT out of your little diatribe, now doesn’t it?
If you’d been paying attention, instead of writhing in glee cause you THOUGHT you’d discovered that the person villifying you the most here was gay, you’d have realized that when I wrote that, I was doing a “what if”. I said,
I find your very mindset immoral. Howzabout them apples? You’re entitled to it, just like I’m entitled to hang with my gay friends. But I sure do find your way of viewing the world to be immoral.
Not for nothing here, but I do know enough LDS history to know that Mormons (sic) have been persecuted, beaten raped, murdered and driven hundreds upon hundreds of miles west, all for their belief system. You ought to know better. Something about throwing stones in glass houses. Like my Jewish friends and family, one learns humility at the hands of oppressors, and strives NOT to oppress others at the first chance. Those Jews I know who haven’t learned that life lesson are as beneath contempt as you are.
Deal with it, it’s an argument neither of us can lose. However, you’re welcome to the last word out between us. Go for it.
If your ability to articulate dwarfs those who beat you up then damn boy, you need to do something about the public schooling in your home town.