“Exposing kids to truly great music so you can implant the idea of aesthetics … but when you start asking them to perform, and thus somehow tacitly endorse the ideas behind the music… well, then you are starting along the path of coersion, and away from the goal of objective (as opposed to subjective) appreciation.”
Sorry MJQ, but I flatly disagree with this. One can perform Wagner’s wonderful works without endorsing his vicious anti-Semitism. As an example, I cite broadcasts of the entire Ring cycle carried on NPR stations over the summer. Several Jewish composers and musicians pointed out that one can play Wagner without endorsing his ideas. I hardly think a band director requiring high school musicians to play Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring constitutes coercion. If an atheist’s convictions can be shaken by playing a piece of music, they were not too firm to begin with.
“precisely the opposite what we want to TEACH children… that is, to appreciate, parse, and critique music and art that present alternative themes and worldviews as having some merit despite perhaps having themes that they themselves disagree with. Thus, to promote intelligent appreciation of music despite not because of its underlying ideology, as well as the emotional experience that all good music can offer.”
Your statements here seem to contradict your earlier statement. If it is important for children to be exposed to alternative themes and worldviews, then why should atheists object to playing Bach or listening to Duke Ellington & his orchestra backing Mahalia Jackson on “Come Sunday”?
Around last December, I went to the “Winter Choral Concert” at my old high school. They called it the “Winter” concert because calling it the “Christmas” concert would exclude Jewish people, and calling it the “Holiday” concert would exclude those who didn’t have December holidays to celebrate.
Of course, half the songs were either hymns or gospel tunes. One of them involved the kids singing about how they wanted to go to Heaven and be with Jesus so they could be released from their worldly troubles (and trust me, hearing a bunch of fifteen-year-old kids singing this made me ill). Another one involved the kids singing the word “Jesus!” over and over again at one point in the song.
Sadly, I think my friend and I were the only ones in the audience to notice the contradiction.
I think you missed two key distinctions I made in my previous post. First, there is a key distinction between music that was written by someone with opinion XYZ and music that has opinion XYZ as a theme. Thus, I’m sure that although a Jewish person may not object to playing wonderful music by an anti-semite they might object to playing music that was written by (whoever) and had anti-semitism as the theme. The music of Wagner being played probably did not have an antisemetic theme, whereas “Messiah” and “Joy” (just look at the names!) are inherently Christian… they could have been written by an atheist, who wrote them and what they thought is irrelevant to the actual music itself (as you are right to point out) what DOES matter though is what the actual work (ie. the music) has as its OWN theme.
The second key distinction I made was the difference between listening to music (being a spectator and an observer of the creation of others) and playing or performing the piece (lending your own voice, and thus tacit agreement, to the theme of that piece). Both of these distinctions are highly important, and I think remove what you see as contradictions in my reply. It is important for children to be exposed to alternate worldviews (LISTEN to many types of music)… but they should choose for themselves whether or not they believe those worldviews are worth endorsing and replicating(PERFORMING the music).
To use an extreme example, Mein Kampf can be read for an understanding of it and its historical and literary (or lack thereof) relevance. An argument can be made that anyone wanting to study the rise of Hitler must at least at some point take a cursory glance at this book. Compare this, to say, requiring someone to do a reading of Mein Kampf at a literary or historical event, which I’m sure most people would find utterly abhorrant. Now compare this to asking someone to read a bunch of poems Hitler wrote about his cat Fluffy. No problem there because the poems he wrote don’t carry the same message as Mein Kampf… most people would understand that the poetic value in “Das ist mein Fluffy” can be appreciated without endorsing Hitler’s personal ideology.
emjaycue, thanks for the nice compliment, and for making a nice point. (I’m a she, BTW.) However, don’t defend me 'cause I’m nice; defend me because I’ve made a good point!
Peyote Coyote, I disagree with your example on two points. I agree with emjaycue: it is not valid to refuse to perform a work simply because of the views held by the composer, when the content of the piece is neutral.
Also, political views and religion are two different things. Should a Democratic kid be excused from singing “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”–to choose a facetious example? No. Should an atheist be excused from singing a song about how awesome God is? Should a Muslim or a Jew be excused from singing a song about Jesus being the only path to salvation? If they object to it, I think so. I never took offense to singing a religious song in music class, but I can see how some people would.
Now, you say that we should still “teach” non-secular music, and on that point I agree. Should an atheist be allowed to leave the room when the music is played, or be exempt from writing a paper about the music’s place in history? No way. But performing it, vocally, actually saying things that directly contradict one’s religion (or lack of it) is a different issue. (Note that I gave as an example a kid in the choir–no outs for a devout Hindu clarinetist, in my book.)
Or German, in the case of most of Bach’s highly Lutheran vocal music.
I showed an aptitude for singing in elementary school, and was always encouraged to try out for the more elite choral groups in Junior High, High School, and College. I enjoyed the heck out of it – primarily because the male-to-female ratio in most choruses most choruses favors the few guys like me who are in them – but I have to admit, every chorus I’ve ever been in has done more sacred music than secular music. And almost all of the sacred music is decidedly Christian.
As an example of just how much sacred music there was: I’m not Catholic, and I never was Catholic, but because of years and years of singing various settings of the Mass I can now recite the words to the Gloria from the Mass, from memory, in under one minute. (No mean feat, to be sure.)
My personal experience with musical education & religion: As a highschooler, I thought of myself as a devoted Lutheran. Now, I’m apostate. I think religion should be kept out of schools. I also love music, and think it should be taught effectively.
When I took choral music in HS, we did a version of an Ave Maria that was musically wonderful. My protestant sensibilities were uneasy at the veneration of Mary, but it did’nt bother me as long as we sang in the secular school setting - it was just another tune. But then, our group was invited to perform at a Lutheran worship service on Sunday (not my own congregation), the director chose to sing this song (apparently with the approval of the minister) this did begin to bother me. The Pastor actually took a couple of minutes before the performance to explain to the congregation the relationship of the Lutheran church to the veneration of Mary. I thought, hoo-boy, can’t we sing something a little less controversial?
So, back to the OP, I’d tend to agree with all your assumptions except the one that said a song about God is not worshiping God. I’d have to think you need to make allowance for the students/parents who really don’t want to be singing “Ave Maria” in school if it isn’t their belief.
As for me, I never set foot in church during Chrismas or Easter. But if any church (or any group) invites the public to a sing-along of Handel’s Messiah, I’m there with my own score.
Slight highjack, but I’ve been looking for someplace to vent…
When my kids were in (public) elementary school, approx 10 years ago, their vocal performances reflected a deep and abiding faith in the religion of Self Esteem. We were treated repeatedly to performances of the most god-awful tripe you’ve ever heard, with lyrics like:
I am special in my very own way/
Just like the night is different from the day/
I don’t care what other folks say/
I’m special in my very own way
and that all-time favorite:
Four hugs a day, that’s the minimum/
Four hugs a day, not the maximum
and:
You can make a miracle/
You can help the children/
Reach out your hand/
And show them that you care…
And I’d be squirming in my seat (and capturing it all on video), and wondering why the hell we couldn’t hear “I’ve Been Workin’ on the Railroad”.
Just wanted to add that this atheist loves Christmas carols.
Has this issue ever occurred to me? I gave me pause a year or so ago when my 3d grade kid’s class was singing “Gospel Train.” But you picks your battles. On woman from my community, who attends my UU church, made a huge deal about the Christmas pageant at her kids’ public school. Got it changed, and pissed a bunch of people off.
When we are talking about things like choir or orchestra, these are electives, aren’t they? Does that make any difference?
One more example. A couple of years ago my daughter’s girl scouts were going caroling. The leaders picked five or so songs and made up little song books. Now there are plenty of non religious carols to choose. Most of you could name 5 or 6 pretty quickly with little effort. But of the songs the organizers selected and distributed, they were ALL as explicitly religious as they get.
You guessed the punchline, one of the girls was Jewish. I just thought the leaders’ actions was somewhere between stupid and inconsiderate. And they had no idea their choices might have been the least bit questionable. When Mrs. D. made an observation that not all the girls or the people whose doors they would be knocking on were necessarily christian, they couldn’t conceive of what she was talking about.
Podkayne:Should an atheist be excused from singing a song about how awesome God is? Should a Muslim or a Jew be excused from singing a song about Jesus being the only path to salvation? If they object to it, I think so.
I agree (and I would extend it as far as your hypothetical “Hindu clarinetist”—he/she should not be required to participate in the performance of any work that violates the dictates of his/her conscience), but I don’t think that that implies that music directors can’t program such music. Of course, if too many people opt out of a piece on conscientious grounds, the director will be forced to substitute something with different content—but that should be a decision that’s based on the religious convictions of the individual participants, not one imposed from above via an official commitment to avoidance of all religious subjects on the part of the music program or the school in general.
Naturally, this is vulnerable to oodles of abuse, as mischievous students foment movements to boycott certain pieces merely in order to harass an unpopular music director, or students who are eager to perform a piece show their resentment toward students who won’t participate, or… But I still think that the compromise of “programming good music including sacred pieces, but allowing individuals to abstain on grounds of conscientious objection” is the best solution.
(tracer, why’d you ever give up singing in choruses, then? The world is still full of vocal groups who need more baritones, including mine!)
(and jsc: wow, do those ever sound revolting. Makes “Free to Be You and Me” look like Bernard de Ventadorn by comparison.)
Shoot, I can do better than that–I can name 5 Christmas carols that don’t even mention Christmas.
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“Sleigh Ride”, “Winter Wonderland”, “Jingle Bells”, “Let It Snow”, “Good King Wenceslas”–no mention of Christmas, religious or secular, in any of the lyrics.
So, as these are really “winter carols”, is “We’re Havin’ a Heat Wave” an Australian Christmas carol?
kellymccaully: the point I was making in the assumption you questioned about singing a song about God not being the same as worshiping God is that in order to perform a piece, like Vivaldi’s “Gloria”, in a manner that promotes enjoyment the choir must first put in a lot of practice so that they can sing it in 4 (or more) part harmony with accurate pitch and timing and rhythm and pronunciation (in this case of the Latin). While I agree that one should be sensitive to the fact that not everyone may want to be singing Glory to God for months at a time in preparation for the performance, some of those rehersals are likely to be decidedly un-worshipful as the choir learns and refines the piece. I personally seldom feel like even the performance was a form of worship until after it is done and I can bask in the glow of having done my best to bring glory to God through music.
Dinsdale: an anecdote that your anecdote justifies my telling.
The choir I sang with in college sang Christmas carols after each performance in the lobby with the audience. It was a lot of fun, and I almost never heard anyone complain about the sacred nature of most of the carols we sang. The exceptions came from those in the choir outside the usual WASP spectrum. The funny thing is that they didn’t mind the singing of sacred carols, but they did mind that they were expected to pick them up in one quick run through on the ASSUMPTION that we’d all been singing the carols every year of our life.The one who identified herself as Jewish wished more for acknowledgement that it wasn’t a given that we all knew the carols rather than expressing a desire to sing something that was specifically Jewish(which we did as a part of our concert at least one year).
Also, I remember one year that a group from our church went caroling. One of the shut-ins we visited really wanted to hear “Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer” so we obliged. It was funny, though, because we’d been delibrately selecting religious carols. (And the shut-ins were all former members of our church, so presumably they wouldn’t mind religious carols).
