How much “sacred” music should be taught in school?
This question is specifically directed at those people who feel strongly about the separation of church and state, especially church and school.
This question is not related to any particular performance or occasion. In other words, this is not supposed to be a debate on what songs are acceptable at graduation, or what sort of balance makes up an acceptable Christmas program.
This question is about what general underlying principles should be used to make up a curriculum for music education.
The following statements are assumptions I would make, let me know if any of them strike you as illogical:
Music education in schools is a good thing.
Music education in schools should include vocal music.
Many religions use music for worship.
Singing a song about God is not the same as worshiping that God.
Separating “sacred” music from “secular” music whithout leaving gaps throughout the history of music is extremely difficult(and may not be possible).
Teaching religion in schools is not a good thing, though teaching about religion is acceptable. (I mean, it is ok to say that Buddhists believe X, it is not ok to say Buddhists believe X and so should you).
Based upon these assumptions, teaching some songs that involve God to children is ok. What sorts of criteria do you think are most important? Historical significance? Depth of meaning of lyrics? Degree to which lyrics promote a specific god? Language(are the lyrics in English or Latin)?
And one last question, is this an issue that has ever occured to you as a concern?
My kids go to a school in Brooklyn Heights that is renowned for its political correctness. No child shall be left behind, and every viewpoint is given equal weight.
The “Winter Sing” includes Celtic Christmas carols, Mitteleuropean Christmas songs, Hannukah songs, Kwaanza songs, Native American celebratory chants, Inuit invocations of the Great Spirit, Venezuelan Beaver Carols, etc.
One of the other parents muttered to me last year "Can’t they just do fucking “Jingle Bells’ for once?”
You can’t get Western Music that DOESN’T have some religion to it. Well the older stuff that most HS play in band and vocally. Yes there is stuff, but most what we played and what I’ve heard has been Bach, Mozart etc. It never bothered me and I don’t see why it bothers other people. We had a prayer, I think anyway, at graduation, I didn’t do it I just looked straight ahead. I think people should be able to have their church groups in school too, no one EVER said I had to go. I don’t think though that they should have some sort of prayer every morning. that’s just my .02 cents though.
Eureka (OP): *Based upon these assumptions, teaching some songs that involve God to children is ok. What sorts of criteria do you think are most important? Historical significance? Depth of meaning of lyrics? Degree to which lyrics promote a specific god? Language(are the lyrics in English or Latin)? *
You’ve got two separate questions here: 1) which musical tradition(s) should we study, and 2) how should we select music within the tradition(s)?
If cross-cultural comparison is a theme of the music curriculum, then of course you have to select for cultural content, as Ike describes (sounds like a fun program, btw!). If you’re just focusing on Western music or some subcategory of it, then naturally you’ll have less religious diversity to deal with.
In any case, whatever tradition you’re studying, the criteria for picking music should be musical: that is, how goddy/un-goddy the lyrics are is a minor issue compared to whether the piece in question is important/beautiful/enjoyable/feasible for your group to sing.
*And one last question, is this an issue that has ever occured to you as a concern? *
Yeah, though not specifically in the context of the public schools: my Renaissance music vocal group plays around with stuff from some different traditions, but religious and cultural content always take second place to (our evaluation of) the aesthetic quality of the composition.
I agree that teaching some sacred music in public school music curricula is not a SOCAS violation; neither is teaching about religious institutions in history classes, or putting on plays about religion or religious figures in drama classes. Forbidding school sponsorship of religious doctrine or practice is not the same thing as mandating total avoidance by schools of every subject involving religion.
It all depends on who you ask. I am sure DavidB’s response would be that no sacred music should be taught or sung in schools.
Personally, I think it depends on the grade level of the child in question. For example, I wouldn’t have an elementary schoolkid listening to Mozart’s Requiem in a class but it would possibly be appropriate given the context in Middle or High School in a public school. So much of music has a religious background that gliding over anything remotely religious robs the children of a sort of musical education. I wouldn’t necessarily have the kids perform the piece of music but having been exposed to it makes a difference.
I would however not enforce it in a musical history or musical styles type of class. You simply can’t avoid religious music there. If the school was vehemently anti-religious I would circumvent it by simply playing instrumental music which may or may not have overtly religious overtones and the interpretation could be taken many ways. This is also grade dependant. I would not necessarily teach elementary kids solely instrumental music but it could be more appropriate in a higher grade, etc.
The purpose of the performance makes a large difference as almost every middle school band or string ensemble will play Greensleeves during Christmas time and not be construed as religiousness but rather traditionalism. I would have hated it if in primary/secondary school I was forced to sing or perform only religious songs unless of course it was well disguised such as it often is in instrumental music. Scriabin’s Divine Symphony though very beautiful doesn’t speak of anything divine to me necessarily.
If given the choice between studying only Post-Vatican II religious music or something else, it would be more educational and interesting if one studied only 70’s porn music as the majority of the Post-Vatican II music is inane drivel that the church completely disserviced itself in helping to create. It essentially got rid of all the masterpieces that were formerly performed and replaced it with the worst new age crap that has ever been imagined and then taken 100 steps worse and made it the norm. So, in that case, I would not support learning religious music in school but otherwise I think it should be part of a musical education as the first 1000 or so years of written western music were religious in nature. (Of course there were other pieces around that were secular, but they didn’t have the benefit of being written down.)
I don’t think any class that teaches some music history could get away from the fact that early music were religious in nature.
Gregorian chants and the use of multiple voices was developed at this time (along with musical notation) and forms an important part of the history. Leaving it out would be like leaving out the Reformation from the history of western civilization.
Speaking as someone who vehemently supports SoCaS I wouldn’t have a problem hearing that music or studying it for its historical importance. I would get antsy if the teacher encouraged us to sing along with the music, especially if singing/playing along with other secular pieces wasn’t encouraged.
i used to teach, and one year i did teach children. it was at a private school however. when xmas time was approaching i was told to teach xams songs. now being that the kids were all chinese, and i’m an atheist, i decided i would not teach any songs that i felt were theistic. i had a lot of freedom inasfar as curiculum goes, nobody ever questioned me about it.
Actually, I don’t know about this one. As far as I can remember, I’ve never really thought about it.
If you are teaching the history of music, it would be hard to get away from all songs with religious themes. If you’re just teaching general singing to kids, there is a much larger selection. I honestly cannot remember much of anything from my school days about music class, and my kids are still too young to have hit that area yet.
Mind you, this is a different question than the idea of Christmas plays and the like, as Eureka indicated in the OP.
Nice question. I think this is one case where “the secular significance of a religiously oriented concept” is legitimate. I enjoy good music in worship; I enjoy good music in private life. The forms of music which fit the two categories overlap only slightly. So I think that I can speak, despite my active theism, as simply person who appreciates music.
Perhaps one of the more ironic things I’ve heard lately has been a Baptist radio station playing a Lutheran college choir singing Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus” – which is at the heart of the Roman Catholic Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and would have given Martin Luther hives! But it is an ethereally beautiful piece of music, regardless of the religious significance of the words.
Stephen Jay Gould speaks of his experiences with singing, including the Hallelujah Chorus from Messiah and a number of other pieces, sacred and secular in origin, in some of his essays.
It would seem to me that the fact that Christians built Chartres Cathedral, composed masses and oratorios, painted Pietas and Crucifixions, etc., is a contingent fact of history, and no different than mentioning the Ramayana or the Iliad – both of which are studied for their literary merit, with no thought that they are evangelizing for Vishnu or Zeus.
I see absolutely no problem with teaching religious music as music in a public school. I would object to a music program that was predominately religious in nature, unless it was elective and clearly identified as an exploration of religious music. I also feel that an alternative course of study needs to be available for any students (or students’ parents) who are uncomfortable with the religious selections.
If you want to dust off a really old thread that covered some of these same issues. look here.
If you are going to eliminate religious music, then you will have to explain how you are teaching music without the best works of Bach, Handel and Vivaldi; their more secular pieces are not equal. Also, you have to explain why plainchant, the chantings and music of other ethnic peoples, including practically all of Native American music, and Black and White gospel music are eliminated from even being discussed as the roots of classical, pop, rock, country and western, blues, jazz and folk music today.
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t remember much of my grade school music education, but I’m pretty sure we never learned about Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, the chantings and music of other ethnic peoples, black and white gospel music, etc.
It was pretty basic.
And after grade school, I don’t think I had another music class again.
To answer the last question I read first: I’m not specifying an age group. I had music classes through elementary school where we sang music occasionally, but not regularly and “America the Beautiful” was probably as religious as we got(though I don’t remember well enough to be sure, and I’ve been singing religious music all my life). We spent much of our time singing folk music playing musical games, learning how to read music and various other activities. I also sang in choirs starting in fourth grade, and there we sang “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” along with “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” in our combined choir concert with all the schools in our half of the district contributing. As a junior in high school we sang Vivaldi’s “Gloria” and a medly from “Big River”(a musical about Huck Finn). I don’t know that any choir directors I had at any point along the line ever made a major issue out of covering ALL periods of music (even all western music) but they all have made an effort to sing songs from a variety of periods and styles.
note to Kimstu: I know I asked multiple questions. I have not had good luck getting people to respond the way I want them to to threads I start. I hoped that if I asked enough questions one or more of them would spark a discussion that might eventually answer my real question, which I still haven’t figured out how to put into words.
I have taught music in public school at all levels. In my first teaching job I was the only music teacher in the district and taught K - 12 general, choral and instrumental. For someone who hasn’t been in school for awhile, many states now have standards that require minimal education in the arts (listening skills and historical references). When it comes to older students in performing groups, if the choral teacher really wants to do a well rounded program they are going to include some Baroque music of a religious nature.
Although I have never had a complaint about my programing choices, I do know several other choral teachers who have had administrators and/or parents complain about the religios overtones of some pieces of music. I would argue that the students are being taught wonderful, valuable music and I teach it for the music’s sake, despite it’s religious nature. Eliminating religious music would take an enourmous bite out of the high quality music that choral teachers like to access for programs.
Every year during the “Holiday” concert, the school orchestra played a selection of religious-themed music, secular holiday music (e.g. “Over the River and Through the Woods,” or “Sleighride” or “Frosty”) and what we referred to as the “Token Hanukkah Song”–usually a ham-fisted medoly of such favorites as “Rock of Ages” and “The Dreidel Song.” I object not because the music was Jewish, but rather because the arrangements were abysmmally bad. There just isn’t that much out there to choose from, and we had to have a THS. (Even the one Jewish kid in the orchestra called it that.)
One year, the director rebelled, and we just played a program of completely non-holiday music and I have to say that I enjoyed it much more than sawing out another cheesy rendition of “What Child Is This?”
As an atheist who strongly supports separation of church and state, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with studying art (paintings, literature, music, etc.) with religous themes. On the other hand, if some non-Christian kid in the choir balks at performing Bach, I can’t say as I’d be comfortable with forcing him/her to participate.
We have to acknowledge the influence of religion on our society. As long as it’s not taught as dogma or science, I have no problem with that.
Podkayne: Frankly, I would have as much sympathy for an atheist who refused to perform Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring or Handel’s Messiah as I would have for a Republican kid who refused to play Dmitri Shostakovich’s work because Shostakovich was a member of the Communist Party – CCCP.
That is to say, zip, zilch, nada, not a bit, none.
Great music is great music. I think pieces like Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring and the Messiah should be taught – along with pieces like Shostakovich’s Fifth Symphony – because they are some of the finest music ever composed, not because they have some religious themes. If atheists cannot separate the musical values from the religious themes, then they have problems other than SOCAS.
At a time when nothing but ghastly rock ‘n’ roll and country permeates the airwaves, I think it is vital to expose kids to truly great music so you can implant the idea of aesthetics.
I don’t see the metaphor here… If Shostakovich had a symphony called “The Proletariat Dance” or “The Fall of the Bourgeoisie (sp?)”… I think it would be just as inappropriate for you to force someone with a dedicated belief in capitalism and a rejection of socialism to perform as to likewise force a commited atheist to perform either “Joy” or “Messiah”… just because someone is a Communist doesn’t necessarily mean their their work is…
Secondly, there isn’t anything wrong with:
Exposing kids to truly great music so you can implant the idea of aesthetics … but when you start asking them to perform, and thus somehow tacitly endorse the ideas behind the music… well, then you are starting along the path of coersion, and away from the goal of objective (as opposed to subjective) appreciation. I myself am a Christian, and I do believe that there are significant objective and subjective merits to both “Joy” and “Messiah” and I myself listen to both pieces when I need to take a break and think and ask God about my life and where its heading. I just don’t think that a public school is an appropriate forum for instilling such subjective appreciation. The family and/or church and/or religious educational institutions? Yes. Secular and government funded/controlled public schools? No. However, including them as examples of artistic merit that can be analyzed with some detachment and objectivity (impossible when one performs a piece) is laudable and should be encouraged.
And… the fact that you dismiss ALL rock and roll and country as ghastly (of which there are many wonderful and spiritual pieces, as well as pieces with less, shall we say, poetic and/or spiritual language… but still with considerable objective musical merit… beauty is, shall we say, in the eye of the beholder) hints at perhaps you, yourself, may not be such a strong believer in “aesthetics” per se but perhaps music that fits your own subjective tastes… precisely the opposite what we want to TEACH children… that is, to appreciate, parse, and critique music and art that present alternative themes and worldviews as having some merit despite perhaps having themes that they themselves disagree with. Thus, to promote intelligent appreciation of music despite not because of its underlying ideology, as well as the emotional experience that all good music can offer.
Its all really a matter of respect for the beliefs and worldviews that others may have. And what is education if not the ability to attack a problem from several different angles and viewpoints?
Which brings me to a thought that has been vexing me for some time… why is it that the Republican/Conservative worldview has a fundamental distrust of “big” government to tax them and spend their money on social programs… but they completely trust, and in fact call for, this government that they so distrust to legislate and teach morality, which is perhaps an even bigger, and more difficult job! This is a fundamental weakness and hypocrisy in the Conservative worldview… but that discussion really deserves its own thread.
–M
P.S. I hate to toot my own horn, but I also hate to repeat myself too much… for my expanded views on the whole religion and government debate, from a viewpoint not often taken by a Christian such as myself: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=41673
P.S.2 I also felt compelled to defend Podkayne a bit since he/she was relatively nice (although respectfully disagreed with) myself in a whole different “Prove God Exists” thread
I would have hated it if in primary/secondary school I was forced to sing or perform only religious songs unless of course it was well disguised such as it often is in instrumental music. Scriabin’s Divine Symphony though very beautiful doesn’t speak of anything divine to me necessarily.