My annual Miss America rant

The BBQ Pit
121

Jodi,

So your opposition is based not only on the pageant contestant receiving a scholarship based on factors unrelated to merit, it’s also based on the fact that you find the reason arbitrary and irrelevant to higher education diversity goals.

Regarding the hypothetical:

Like Duke mentioned, and I’m sure you know, scholarships can be awarded for many apparently strange reasons. Such as being tall, short, or some of the unusual scholarships described here (among them left handed veteran golf caddies, people who aren’t involved in strenuous sports activities, and people with the last name of Gatlin or Gatling). I generally have no objection to private parties funding any manner of strange scholarships (i.e. placenta eating lobotomized basket weavers). However silly I might find a given scholarship’s applicant requirements I wouldn’t necessarily say that it was wrong. Nor would I necessarily say that I lost respect for the people who applied for them.

Regarding the pageant in general:

From my perspective, you dislike the Miss America pageant because you think it’s objectifying and disingenuous (purports to be a scholarship program when it’s a beauty contest). If we assume that it’s primarily a beauty contest (ignoring for the moment some of the high levels of educatation and talent mentioned), and that the contestants have entered primarily for the material benefits (which AFAICT seems to be true), wouldn’t the participants be most closely comparable to models and modeling (which, if not rocket science, isn’t worthy of derision IMO)?

Having said that I’m not really affected one way or the other. I’m really rather indifferent to the existence of the show. I haven’t watched the Miss America pageant in over a decade because, like you, I prefer other uses for my time. I just happen to find the topic and discussion interesting and wanted to explore it more thoroughly.

122

AHunter3,

As I mentioned to Jodi earlier (and which she acknowledged) the most beautiful contestant in the Miss USA pageant isn’t always the winner (just like the most ‘needy’ isn’t always the recipient for needs based scholarships). However, I agree that the parallel wasn’t as close as it could have been, thus the recrafting of the hypothetical to more closely match other, more commonly accepted scholarship programs (i.e. the applicants either ‘have it’ or they don’t. Once they have it winners are chosen on other criteria).

123

No I’m not saying this - I’m saying women should have equal access, all things being equal, especially in these areas where most power is held.
Maybe I should clarify the ‘same job’ thing - I mean the ‘equivalent type’ job, where jobs are predominantly male or female. I was assuming that most people understand the bigger picture of this arguement but I guess not.
And BTW I’m talking about western countries - in the middle and far east, the battle ain’t even 1/4 won.
And if you think that men have no influence on how women view themselves and are in no way involved in the cosmetic industry and eating disorders, you are not one for looking at the bigger picture - go read some sociology 101. I’m not talking about women trying to look better than each other or boyfriends doing the dishes.

124

Sure, but now do you leave the disingenuity out of it? If they said, hey! Modeling contest! Step right up! – which is basically what that dreadful and surpassingly stupid “Hottest Person In America” show did – then we could judge that for what it was: crass, materialistic, shallow, objectifying, but at least innocent of the accusation that it’s disengenous.

Miss America OTOH purports to be a “scholarship competition,” and that’s where it becomes affronting – because nobody should have to parade around in a swimsuit as a prerequisite for serious consideration for scholarship money. And, again, even the weird scholarships based on things like height or weight don’t require that you be the tallest of them all, or the fattest of them all, in order to “win.” And they don’t make you march around on stage while they decide which of you most closely approximates the ideal of height. Do I think it’s wrong to give out silly-ass scholarships? No. It’s your money; do what you will with it, but I’m certainly entitled to think it’s stupid. I never said the Miss America organization – and the myriad of other pageant organizations – didn’t have the right to do what they’re doing. I just think it’s stupid. And disengenous.

So I wouldn’t say I’m “indifferent” to it, because I think it’s surpassingly stupid. But it doesn’t keep me up nights; the world is full of stupid stuff.

125

Women in general are targets. You aren’t picked out because you’re purdy. You’re picked out because you’re a woman.

126

I thought the primary point of the OP was not “Eww, how horrible that such an objectifying, belittling competition as the Miss America pageant should exist” so much as “Eww, how horrible that out of all the scholarship competitions available to women, the one dispensing the lioness’s share of the available benefits is this objectifying belittling beauty contest flying under false colors.”

In that light, arguments about how the Miss America contest isn’t really so godawful horrible, with parallels and comparisons to other categories outlined to defend them, would seem to be just a bit irrelevant. Not entirely irrelevant, just a bit.

To that end: If we toss men, and along with them all the scholarships available to men, into the consideration pot, …

• does the Miss America pageant still stand out head shoulders (and perhaps tits) above all other scholarship opportunities, in terms of the total $ allocated and distributed to people of any gender? And, if so, if we remove Miss America from our immediate attention, are the 2nd 3rd 4th 5th etc place finishing scholarship opportunities available (rigidly or effectively) to men only?

• is it true that if one is a male student, one has a wider range of available scholarship opportunities, more total reasonable chances or higher likely award packages, etc, than one would have if one were a woman student insufficiently attractive to have a shot at doing Miss America?

• If, for the sake of argument, the answers to the above two questions lead us to believe that females seeking scholarship money have opportunities roughly in parity with those available to males without considering Miss America as an option for the moment, is it still reasonable to resent and disparage a situation in which an astonishing amount of money goes to pay women to compete in this beauty contest, on the grounds that societies are accountable for how they spend money and that this particular expenditure is bad in much the same way that it might be considered bad if tobacco companies paid for school textbooks and equipment and put cigarette ads in the flyleafs of your kids’ science texts and on the surfaces of their gym equipment?

127

PS — before anyone again brings up male sports scholarships as equivalently belittling — two slaps don’t make a love pat, so even if you’re right that doesn’t make the OP’s concerns misplaced.

And while some are simply not born with the innate grace or fast-twitch muscle fibers of a naturally born athlete, even such a non-athlete and non-athletics-loving person as myself is inclined to see athletic prowess as being at least partially an achievement; I’ll even grant that it may even “teach life lessons like leadership and teamwork” etc., although not as much as the coaches and sports promoters would have us believe, and may reward some awfully boorish attitudes of the sort I associated with jocks and jockdom.

But beauty pageants? Mmm, yeah. Useful life skills being developed here. Sure.

128

Well, I feel the same way the OP does. Yes, it’s a free country and companies should be able to do whatever the hell they feel like doing with their own money, yadda yadda… but it doesn’t change the fact that when I turn on the TV and see women standing up on what amounts to an auction block, I cringe.

This has nothing to do with freedom. OF COURSE WE SHOULD BE FREE TO DO WHAT WE WANT. I keep reading Dopers insisting on the “it’s a free country…so shut up” defense, as if that is a valid response. Feminism is about freedom, but it’s also about respect. And I think that’s what the OP is addressing.

You could very well also ask: If these women can get expensive scholarships out of giving blow jobs, what’s wrong with that? Is anything fair game as long as money is involved?

Women do have a harder time being judged by merits instead of looks. The fact that it’s a societal problem–and not just a man problem–does not make it any less damaging or wrong. Think about what would happen if a woman became president. Would we judge her on how well she addressed international issues, the federal budget, education, crime, or defense spending? Or would we spend an inordinate amount of time cracking jokes about her hair, fashion sense, the lines on her face, or breast size? Seriously think about it. Anyone who thinks her physical appearance would be as much of a non-issue as it is with men is living in an ass crack.

What’s most frustrating is not that people don’t admit that women are judged by a different (often unvalid) set of criteria than men. Most people do admit that. What’s frustrating is that they see nothing wrong with it. If what a female president is wearing garners more attention than her view on foreign relations, that’s a problem to me and I don’t understand why that isn’t obvious. Her looks have nothing to do with how well she performs in her office!

So I can’t really look at Miss America and think “wow what a wonderful way to give money to deserving students and empower women to realize their dreams”. The contestants may very well be some of the best and brightest minds this country has got to offer, but the fact that they are judged by the same ole tired criteria that have held back women for years (“but does she have a nice ass?”) makes it difficult to appreciate how smart, altruistic, talented, and academically-driven these women are. I think that’s sad.

129

[nitpicky]Gotta cite for that? Because UW-Green Bay doesn’t have a med school. As far as I know, the only UW school that has a med school is at Madison. From this page, it looks like the closest that UWGB has is a pre-med program.[/nitpicky]

130

The Miss America contest started giving scholarships as prizes in 1945.

You may be right that the residents some areas of the US place more prestige on winning pageants than others. However, I’m certain that students from every area of the country are interested in winning scholarship money.

Reading this thread brought a possible double standard to mind. I’ve often read how bad it is that popular culture glorifies thin women. Not that the Miss America contestants look Calista Flockhart sickly or anything, but there have been comments about how it’s unfair that a fatty never becomes Miss America. Given that 61.9% of American women are overweight and 33.4% are obese, it’s certainly a fact that invariably slender Miss America contestants are unrepresentative of the population. In my mind, however, the last thing Americans (all Westernised people, really) need is to hear that it’s OK to be fat. It struck me that while I’ve read about how awful it is that celebrities like Kate Moss are so thin because they might encourage anorexia, I can’t recall ever hearing of an obese celebrity like John Candy or Roseanne being taken to task for being a poor role model on the basis of being grossly overweight. So no, I don’t think it would be right for an overweight woman to be Miss America on the grounds that it would send the wrong message to impressionable young women, who need to see the tangible benefits of exercise and good nutrition. From the photographs I looked over from this year’s contest, I’d say that the Miss America contest is, just as many models are, making a mistake by promoting tanning, a practise that’s bad for the skin.

I don’t see anything wrong with celebrating beauty. The human female form can be, to me at least, as wonderful as any work of art. It’s a little hard to see the art if it’s covered by a curtain so the swimsuit competition makes sense to me. I don’t see why anyone should logically feel threatened by the glorification of youth and beauty. So very few of us are young and beautiful that most don’t have to compete with these people.

Some posters have expressed dislike for the fact that the competition is for scholarship money. They seem to me to be missing much of the point. The Miss America contest is supposed to be wholesome, what better prize could there be for a contest like this, other than competing for charity? Actually, competing for charity seems vaguely distasteful to me. It’s something second rate actors do on game shows. Having scholarships for prizes probably makes fund raising a lot easier, too.

As others have pointed out, the Miss America contest is not a straight up beauty contest. They give scholarships for community involvement and other non-appearance criteria and some of the points are for talent, etc. Dismissing the whole thing as some sort of porn or sub-human worship of flesh is mistaken, in my view.

I will agree with the posters who said the show is boring, though. Wholesomeness doesn’t appeal to me very much. The contestants are pretty, talented, and have nice bodies and everything but the whole thing is so white bread I haven’t watched it since I was a kid.

131

Jodi

I would say I’m “indifferent” despite it’s disingenuity because I see it as ultimately harmless. Shallow? Sure. But some people are entertained, other people gain scholarships, the producers make money and the advertisers get the word out about their products. The contestants enter of their own free will. I certainly don’t see it as indicative of a setback in the women’s movement, a general decline in the way society treats women, or a signal that women haven’t made substantial equality gains.

132

you with the face,

With the freedom to choose must come the freedom to choose poorly. If a woman chooses to behave in a way which is degrading or improper (setting aside for the moment the question of whether participating in the Miss America pageant is negative) IMO that reflects on her, not women in general. The accomplishments of women, as a whole, in the sciences, politics, the arts and numerous other areas are not diminished IMO by the existence of a pageant that has been in decline for years.

I agree that it would be ludicrous to concentrate on her appearance while ignoring her performance. I know that you presented this hypothetical as an example but I think it’s unlikely people would judge the President in the manner you’re positing. I think the vast majority of Americans would be primarily concerned with her performance, stand on the issues, and character.

Well, I can understand how you would find it frustrating that educated, talented, driven women are being judged (as you perceive it) on the most irrelevant criteria. Having said that, however, I think it’s dangerous to proclaim larger truths about American society and the level of equality between men and women based on a dated (and declining) show.

133

Now you talk about “equal access” and equality of opportunity, but in your original list you listed only results: how many women are CEOs, congresspersons, etc. If you were talking about access things you would have lamented how hard it is for women to get into college or law school–which you can’t because it’s absolutely not the case.

Um . . . what? You’re saying that women that work in predominantly female jobs (e.g., nursing, teaching) make less than men working in predominantly male jobs (e.g., construction, investment banking)? First, I’m not sure that’s true (nurses earn a good living these days). Second, I don’t see how anyone could have gotten that out of your original statement. Therefore, I’m afraid that so far you’ve failed to make it off that list I mentioned earlier.

First, guess what my undergrad degree is in, smartypants. Second, you sound like you think you are negating something I’ve said, which is most definitely not the case. Third, even if it’s the case that “men have influence over how women view themselves,” whatever the hell that means, ultimately it is the woman that chooses to view herself as too fat (or whatever) based on what she sees in a magazine. You can’t blame men for her eating disorder.

134

:smack: easy e, you are correct. She had mentioned attending University of Wisconsin - Green Bay and getting her MD from one of the U of W schools. Checking her bio page, it was indeed Madison.

135

by Grim

No offense honestly, but it’s clear you’re speaking as someone who has little experience feeling extra-scrutinized because of your gender…or race, for that matter. My perspective on this differs from yours. In a perfect world, everyone would be judged by their own actions, but this ain’t no perfect world. If that was the case, there would be no police profiling against blacks and employers wouldn’t see everyone woman of childbearing age as a potential liability sometime down the road.

No they are not diminished by the pageant; never said that it was. But the ability of women to succeed in the same capacities as men is harder for everyone to appreciate when time and time again, what they look like is given so much attention. The messages that young girls receive are still quite different than the ones the boys get. Boys have successful, smart, witty, rich, powerful role models on TV to emulate. The importance of attractiveness is not stressed as hard to them. Their worth is not tied to their abilty to find a woman to marry. But girls are still expected to first be beautiful and physically desirable, and then smart. Better have big breasts, thin waists, and long flowing hair, little girls! If not, no boy will want you and that’s the worse thing in the world!

I disagree. Society is not quite ready to accept a woman as our president because women still have a more difficult time being taken seriously. We still face the catch-22 dilemma that comes with either being The Bitch or being The Weakling. If a woman is strong, straight-forward, and no-nonsense her sexuality is questioned. If she is feminine, some people see that as a detractant from her ability to command. Remember all the talk when Hillary Clinton was First Lady? It offends me that people called her “too strong”. WTF? What is she supposed to be like? A wilted flower?

I’m not “proclaiming larger truths” here. Television, however, can and does largely reflect the mindset of society. If you watch it critically, you’ll see the same images that I’m seeing. And it’ll make you want to turn the damn thing off and not want to watch it again.