I didn’t choose to be an atheist. I grew up in a religious household and had myself pretty convinced that while I didn’t believe in quite the standard way, I still believed. That is, until I started really thinking about what exactly I believed and everything started to crumble.
I didn’t one day say, “Self, you will become an atheist because it’s way glam and you’ll look smart!” I didn’t say, “Self, you will become an atheist and demonstrate your hatred for God who really exists but you’ll deny it, oh yes, you’ll deny it!”
I said, “Self, um, about that Catholicism thing. You know how you feel when people start talking about their religious experiences the same way as you feel when they talk about their sex lives and you just desperately want them to stop embarrassing themselves and you? That’s not normal, self. Let’s talk.”
I didn’t choose it, so I can’t claim that it demonstrates my great wisdom.
And I didn’t choose it, so you (general you) shouldn’t claim that it demonstrates that I have cooties, either. (Though I suppose people generally don’t choose cooties, so that might not be the best analogy in the world.)
So, resolved: Atheism doesn’t reveal anything about my wisdom or my choices. It’s akin to handedness and liking Brussels sprouts.
I agree that beliefs are not generally a matter of choice. But should we say, therefore, that beliefs cannot be taken as evidence of wisdom? Is wisdom supposed to be a matter of choice?
I disagree. Beliefs often have a degree of ignorance to them and getting rid of ignorance is a choice we can make. If you believe the moon is made of green cheese, you could do something about that belief. The evidence is out there, it’s available, and it’s compelling.
You chose (to your credit) to think about things differently than your other family members. You can’t escape the fact that, like everyone else, you are responsible for the content of your mind.
That being said, atheism per se doesn’t say anything about your “wisdom.” I’ve known people who were atheists simply because that’s the way they were raised, and they never gave it a moment’s thought.
So your “wisdom” is in your independent thinking (which is volitional), not in your atheism.
“I didn’t choose to eat Indian food today. My natural brain chemistry is set up so that eating Indian food was the only possible thing I could have done. There was no way I could have chosen to eat at McDonald’s instead; the very nature of McDonald’s is repellent to me. I therefore cannot be blamed nor take credit from eating Indian food today.”
By defining choice the way you are using it in this thread, you remove all meaning from the word choice. You have looked at the evidence, and the only reasonable option seems to be not to believe. The fact that you can’t see how you would have chosen to believe from the available evidence is irrelevant. I don’t see how anyone could look at the modern world and be a liberal, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t chosen to be a libertarian. By the way, IANAChristian.
I have a sister who is also an atheist. She simply doesn’t believe.
I have had many in-depth conversations with believers where we both say the same things, but at the end of the conversation I simply don’t believe and they simply do. There’s no volition involved.
I imagine that there are some people who don’t really believe who can’t admit that to themselves. And I imagine that there are some people who do believe who can’t admit that to themselves. And those may be choices. That was me for a long time. But the believing or not believing isn’t a choice. I tried very hard to believe.
Trust me, if I had a choice, I’d be a Roman Catholic.
I’d say that skepticism likely has as much of a link to genetics as handedness. But so does your natural ability/disability at math or music or any other thing that makes you you.
I once met a guy who pointed out that if you look at how long people live, basically people with relatives who live to be 100 years old live to be 100 and people with relatives who all die in their 60s will die in their 60s. So you can say that dieting and exercise are somewhat futile and that you can’t be held responsible for what was somewhat preordained.
Personally I’d say that the argument for either side is actually quite good. You are just living the life dictated by your situation. But that’s just as true for everyone else, so it’s sort of pointless to belittle the individual accomplishments we all make.
Well, actually it does. You could have chosen to not explore your beliefs, chosen to not to explore doubt or embarrassment or whatever it was drove you to disbelieve, chosen not to educate yourself about your religion.
If you the only thing you have is that people describing religious experiences makes you uncomfortable, then you need to reexamine your beliefs. Atheism is not just a dislike of religion or religious expression.
Definitely not. Handedness is hardwired into you, and cannot change. Even circumventing it for a short time takes a lot of effort. Tastes are also wired into you, but can and do change over time. Tastes can also be learned, but tends to be a long gradual process without guarantee of success.
Belief systems are built over time, requiring foundations to start them, built with things you consider true or worth holding onto. The more of them you have, the stronger the building and the belief system. Learning new things can either remove bricks, or build more. How the bricks form vary from fiat to inspiration to careful research and conclusion. Not all bricks are the same. You can change belief systems, but it requires removing the old one and building a new one. It’s something you have control over. It’s very different from traits that are hardwired into your brain.
I think we are hardwired to believe or not when it comes to religion. I don’t feel that I have any religious beliefs. I lack the ability to believe.
To clarify: I disagree with your statement that beliefs are generally not a matter of choice. I think religious beliefs are one of the very few that are not subject to choice, and that’s just at the level of “do you believe or not?” After that, it’s all choices.
99% of people believe as their parents did (as I’ve brought up elsewhere.) So it seems more accurate to say that most people really couldn’t care less and simply go with the flow.
When you are taught to be religious and then become religious ,something has to change to become an atheist. When the complete lack of evidence finally makes it so you can no longer deny it ,it is not a choice. It is simply acting on a logical conclusion drawn from the lack of evidence.To choose at that point is saying" I have thought this through. I find no evidence for god and think I am wasting my life on a fantasy. Should I continue or not?" Easy decision.
The board members who claim to be religious must actually understand that. So I think they are not telling the truth. They don’t really believe in god. If they can think logically ,they must deep in their hearts know better.
Alright then, I put the same challenge to you that you posed to others. Announce to me some particular (non-religious, if necessary) belief of yours, and then change it.
That’s astonishingly easy. All I have to do is name something I have never investigated and then go look it up. Eventually (probably very quickly), I’ll run across something I had the wrong idea about.