My suggestion is pre-marriage counceling.
Get one councler for each of you that you both feel comfortable with, and have them work together. Take time finding them and don’t settle. Find out what the other really means by ‘marriage’, the unspoken stuff that each assumes the other knows. Have them explore the prenupt issue.
I’m not a lawyer either, but I have a strong opinion on the bank account issue. I think it’s fine that there is a joint bank account in which most of the family assets are kept and used for paying expenses, and also a family savings account. However, it is only prudent to keep some assets in your separate control.
You should retain at least one credit card that is in your name only. You should keep at least a small bank account that is yours alone. Even if you stay together for a lifetime, who knows how long that lifetime will be? In the unfortunate case of his untimely early demise, you want to have some assets that are clearly and undeniably yours alone until you get inheritance straightened out. That can take a little time, even if there is an appropriate will, bank accounts with right of survivorship, etc. And if the marriage doesn’t last a lifetime, it’s needed even more.
A few thoughts come to mind-despite all efforts to effect equality, when a couple enters family court or domestic relations, there is a preexistent bias against the male. Not to defend the SOBs who deserve everything they lose, but unfortunately males are tarred with that brush.
Hypothetical situation: Dope Girl and Dope Guy get married. They both work for a few years until able to afford dope house, and then have some dope kidlets. Dope Girl is now a SAHM which is fine, as Dope Guy is happy to work hard to pay the bills. 10 years down the road, Dope Girl has a moment of indiscretion with her hairdresser, that moment becomes an affair, and she decides to ditch Dope Guy, take the kids and head off with Capt. Clairol. P.S. She wants 50% of the value of dope house, plus spousal support, alimony pendent lite, and child support.
Without a prenup-she will get that at minimum. Methinks Dope Guy just got reamed twelve ways for Topeka, and perhaps he wouldn’t have with a good prenup.
I know it’s off-topic but what does fault in the divorce have to do with build-up of the marital estate? Why do you get “reamed,” if your partner has a sexual affair with someone else and you then have to equally/equitably (dependent upon the state) have to divide up an estate which the two of you (supposedly) built together? Being a SAHM doesn’t mean you aren’t contributing to the estate-that was the entire point of equitable division statutes in common law states. I don’t see what one really has to do with another-I think it’s odd to want to “punish” someone with a poor distribution of the marital estate because the marriage broke up for X or Y reason. Otherwise we’d have a sliding scale of applying degrees of fault to the marital estate wouldn’t we? It gives me an actuarial headache.
If DoperChic’s fiance-to-be wants to set up a pre-nup where he goes into endless detail about the possibilities that may ensue and how he plans divvy up the estate therein-I’d say she has a major problem on her hands.
As has been said, prenups generally protect existing assets. But it might be worthwhile for the two of you to sit down and do a financial inventory - if not an offical pre-nup. Also, it probably isn’t a bad idea to itemize anything you are bringing into the marriage that you care about. My step father in law is still upset that his ex wife left their marriage 30 years ago with his grandfathers heirloom chair.
Hmight have $30,000 in student loans, while you have none. But you may have $10,000 in car loans and another $4000 in credit card debt. Its worth it to sit down before you combine your lives and figure out where each one of you is sitting financially. If the marriage lasts 18 months (my first one did), do you want to split debt 50/50? Its also worth while to figure out what your financial goals are - how realistic will it be to be a stay at home mom on his teacher’s salary with a big house? Are vacations important to you? To him? How about new cars? Retiring early? What are your priorities? In other words, figure out what you have, what you want from life, and if you are on the same page. Its worth writing this down, even if not in a legal prenup document. Also worth talking about is how you will handle money. For instance, you might have a rule that any expense outside your budget needs to be discussed. It amazes me how many people I know are married to people who think nothing of going out and buying a new car without talking to their spouse! Maybe that will be ok for you, maybe not, but you should talk about it now - its an unpleasant surprise to find out you married someone willing to sign a $20,000 car loan without talking to you.
My brother in law is getting divorced. He could have really benefitted from a financial disclosure and some good honest conversations about money and goals before they got married.
I can see how you’d be offended when he asked for a pre-nup. I certainly would have been at one point, but I’ve done some looking and introspection (due to a failed long-term relationship) and I think they’re a great idea.
It’s not just to protect him, you realize - it protects your interests as well. With a pre-nup in place, even if you do end up divorcing, the pre-nup can detail how you would be treated financially as well, and not just him. If you’re working at home (while more work than a lot of jobs, it doesn’t put money in the retirement plan) you don’t have a retirement plan to speak of… but you could detail it in the pre-nup, and you wouldn’t have to fight over/for it later.
Just because it’s there doesn’t mean you have to use it, either! Maybe you can ceremonially burn a copy on your fifty year anniversary. 
Personally, I don’t see why you would be upset by this. Here’s a sample prenuptial agreement, just for reference. http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/prenup.htm
One thing that may impact you is that most prenuptials are phrased so that spousal support is not given. Suddenly going from a stay at home mom with an income coming in from your spouse to becoming a single mom who’s only income is child support may be a bit hard. This does of course vary from agreement to agreement and you could insist that some allowance be put there in the event that you divorce while you’re a stay at home mom.
If I were to marry, I think I’d insist on a prenuptial agreement myself.
IANAL etc. Depending on the state, non-marital assets can become marital/community assets fairly easily. In Wisconsin, for example, any marital property that gets mingled with a non-marital asset becomes marital (i.e. depositing marital money into a non-marital bank account). We are, however, the only state to date that has adopted the Uniform Marital Property Act so the ins and outs of our law are different than other community property states.
And if I may offer a friendly suggestion, our Doper lawyer-folk pretty much all find it useful to include, when discussing legal topics, a disclaimer to the effect of “I am a lawyer but not in your state, I am not your lawyer, you are not my client and this isn’t legal advice” so as to insulate themselves from liability for their posts.
How is this any different than asking for a pre-nup? If you understand that it may make sense to make certain arrangements “just in case”, I don’t see why you’re so offended that he feels the same way.
I’d suggest not getting too upset about the request. A lot of financial planners and pundits recommend all marrying couples get pre-nups (Suze Orman is one). It could be your fiance has heard or read this advice, is acting on it, and it means nothing about you personally or your relationship.
Let me second the vote for premarital counseling. I do think it’s great that you’re getting together to talk this through promptly, rather than seething or pouting, etc.
Premarital counseling is good for rooting out those issues that it’s really easy for individual members of a couple to feel strongly, but differently, about, and the issue doesn’t come out until too late.
In terms of the prenup, a great start would be to learn the facts together about what would happen in your state if you did divorce after certain scenarios (2 years marriage, 4 years marriage + 2 kids and 2 years SAHM). Understanding the realities of raising a family on 1 vs. 2 incomes and agreeing that’s what you both want and are willing to make necessary sacrifices for is important, too.
I once shocked Mr. Spry, much like your boyfriend shocked you, by talking about wanting him to sign papers before we ever (hypothetically) had kids. My parents divorced in the 70s with minimal child support enforcement, my dad never paid a dime. Mr. Spry felt strongly that more trust than that should be inherent in any marriage. So I would also agree with the statement made previously that people’s family experiences play strongly into their ideas about marriage, divorce, prenups, etc.
IMO, you guys need to have some long talks about future finances and what money represents to you both, and consider getting pre-marital counselling and/or financial counselling. Money is one of the biggies when it comes to marital disagreement, so the more work you both do on making sure you’re on the same wavelength, the better.
I hope the talks go well for you both. And congrats on the engagement
Thanks for the suggestion, Otto…I thought my follow-up post made it pretty clear that she should consult a lawyer in her state, but I’ll make sure to preface any future comments with what you suggested.
Uh, I’m a law student (6! more! months!), nothing posted here was meant to be legal advice to you (Doperchic) as my client, please consult a lawyer in your own jurisdiction.
Oh, and yeah, I had typed up a long post about commingling of separate property and then having it end up as marital property yada yada yada but the post got eaten so I just retyped it as “Pre-nups list separate property etc. very explicitly to avoid confusion down the line and prevent judges from deliberating on the issue.”
I was going to point out this very thing! It seems like hypocrisy to me, although I’m sure that DoperChic didn’t think of it that way. IOW, I don’t think she was trying to pull one over on anyone, she’s probably just too upset to think about it clearly.
I don’t see a problem with a pre-nup, as long as it’s fair to both people signing it.
Best of luck, DoperChic, in working things out, and I wish both of you much happiness!
It’s easy to get your knickers in a knot over the request of a pre-nup. However, I’ve been on both sides of the divorce fence and I would be a full supporter of a pre-nup.
Men particularly seem to have little or no rights in divorce court. I know of more than one man that has been burned financially by his soon-to-be ex-wife.
Punishing one of the two people in a marriage by finding fault in the reason(s) for the divorce is nonsense. It takes two to tango, honey, and an affair is a symptom of a bad marriage, not the cause of it.
As much as we want our marriage to be an “emotional” treaty, it’s also a financial arrangement. As he said, he’s heard (haven’t we all?) of men getting hosed in a divorce and he doesn’t want that to happen to him. No one wants to consider divorce when they are just starting their lives together but the simple reality is that you’ve only got a 50/50 chance of survival. I’ve seen many couples in love turn into visious, hateful, spiteful I’m-going-to-take-him/her-to-the-cleaners people and it’s just not pretty.
So cut the guy a little slack. Your reasoning for wanting separate bank accounts is the same as his wanting a pre-nup so don’t be so angry with him. Calmly talk to him and find out what’s important to you both and run with it.
I don’t think it’s that outrageous.
I’ve seen way to many of my friends and families end up in ugly situations. It’s not that he has doubts about the relationship- it’s that he wants to be able to enter in to the relationship without any doubts. He wants to know that both of you know you will get a fair shake, and should anything happen, it can be amicable and not a bitter fight. And even though you are young, you have things to protect. If you get an inhertence, does he deserve half of it if he leaves you in a year? If he scrips and saves and works extra shifts to buy a snazzy car, should he have to sell it and split the money? Even if it never comes in to use, it’s good to figure out what is “yours, mine and ours”.
And don’t think it all needs to be “ours”. In every society since the dawn of time, women have been encouraged to have savings of their own. You owe it to yourself to have enough to ensure your independence no matter what may happen in life. If it never is used, so much the better.
So, he wants a pre-nup to protect him in case the shit hits the fan, but doesn’t see the point of a seperate bank account to protect you in case the shit hits the fan? That double standard would worry me far more than the simple request for a prenup.
First of all, “prenup” is shorthand for “Prenuptial agreement”. So it contains whatever the 2 partners agree should be in it. So saying it’s unfair, etc. is ridiculous – if you think so, don’t agree to it.
And it seems to me that is was good that he asked about such an agreement. It got the two of you to start thinking and talking about finances, which it seems you weren’t before, and where you seem to have some seriously distinct views. Talking about these before the marriage is definately a good idea!
P.S. Are either of you likely to inherit any sizeable amount from your parents or other relatives? This can make quite a significant difference in your financial standings.
I really don’t get why some women react so violently against the idea of a pre-nup. No, it’s not giving up on the relationship before it starts or any nonsense like that. The statistics show that about half of marriages end in divorce. What percentage of those divorced couples thought they’d be together forever? Probably most of them, yet they were wrong.
You drive a car, you wear a seatbelt. Does that mean you expect to get in a wreck? No. You’re just being prepared.
And a pre-nup doesn’t neccesary mean that anyone gets screwed over. If the terms are right, both parties can be protected.
Just a thought but has the OP considered that while he may not be worth a lot now, there may be considerable family assets coming his way in the future which need to be protected for his family?