That’s certainly true. We could go at this from the “Jesus is a false prophet” angle, but the Christians here would all protest that those verses don’t really count because they don’t really mean what they say, bla bla bla. So it all ends the same.
Posts 90 - 97.
When was heresy tolerated by the Catholics? Was is only after they lost the power to do anything about it? And I don’t want to make any false assumptions, so let me guess, you’re Catholic?
Well put.
Debate was tolerated by the church with it’s clergy. And no.
What’s wrong with that? You said the idea of hellfire didn’t emerge until 500-700 AD, and I showed you that Dives was tormented by flame in the afterlife in the book of Matthew, and you made some claim that that didn’t count for whatever reason.
So I made a cite, I understood that cite, and you did what Christians do and just pretended those words didn’t really mean what they said, except for the parts you like of course.
The popular mythos of a “hell” didn’t emerge until 500-700 CE. And that particular quote you used was a story used to teach a lesson and not a directive of “You will burn.” as you construed it to be.
Ohhh, well isn’t that nice. Unless of course debated too hard right? Then they excommunicated you, tortured you, or burned you alive, right?
No, what kind of Christian are you then?
Was it because before 500-700 you didn’t have a Bible that anyone could read? Because there’s lots of talk of fire in the various books before that. Want me to cite some more for you? I’m happy to debate going forward using your beliefs that Jesus more or less gas chambered souls, and while I think that has some scriptural support, it’s clearly contradicted in a few places to include what happened to Lazarus and Dives.
Jesus taught by story all the time. In the story mentioned, Lazarus suffered on earth and was therefore comforted in heaven, while the rich man got the exact opposite, conscious torment by flame if I remember correctly. As Jesus also said, woe unto you that are rich…
I never said that was my belief. In fact, I quite clearly said that I couldn’t answer what happens after death to those not taken to heaven.
Are you actually willing to discuss any scripture you bring up, or is everything but your view the only view that matters and anything I say just a “claim that that didn’t count for whatever reason”?
Yes. And Yes. In a story. Which is, again, like saying that the nursery rhyme “Ring around the Rosy” was telling all children to die because it talks about ashes and then they fall down. There is nothing behind those words, there is no such thing as idioms that fail transition into other languages, and no possible discussion beyond the literal, right?
Though, Lewis’s version of Hell wasn’t hellfire. It was just hanging out in grey space, getting annoyed at each other and moving farther and father away. The ‘obstacles’ to moving up appear to be people unwilling to give up things in order to move forward - so I do think there is a voluntarily not going aspect to it.
Unless you are discussing actually getting on the magic bus to heaven in the first place and not what happens to folk after they get off the bus.
I quite enjoyed it, but YMMV (and maybe I was more inclined to do so as a believer and one who doesn’t believe in the idea of hellfire and damnation).
OK, so maybe it’s hellfire and maybe it’s a gas chamber, that’s cool, the Bible is contradictory on it.
I’ll discuss any scripture, but when you start saying verses mean things they clearly do not say, I’ll be sure to mention it.
I don’t see your point, Jesus was teaching nursery rhymes and heaven and hell are fairy tails? OK, I’ll go along with that.
Do you believe in heaven and eternal paradise?
Yes well they’re all just stories, aren’t they?
Virgin conception.
Census requiring to go to Bethlehem.
Trial before Pilatus
Exodus from Egypt.
Moses’ burning bush
Bit hard to distinguish what is just a “lesson”, just a story, 4th hand testimony, parabel, metaphore, commandment, nullified by Jesus and some nuggets that might be facts.
Not exactly what you would expect when the One and True God, that created the universe in six days, came out and said: “Hey guys, I wrote a book, about Me and what it is all about.”
“Read this and it is clear what you must do so I will save you.”
Wow! I go away home for a few hours and a religious war breaks out.
Guys, my OP was not about any of this crap.
I am trying to thoughtfully live my life the best I can. I base it on the Bible. Do I believe it all? Yes, within context. Is that cherry picking? If you feel so, then feel so; I don’t. I think that it is living thoughtfully. I believe in God, but I also believe that the Bible was written in context of a first century-ish world. Even in the Bible, Jesus says that some of the things in the Bible were NOT God’s will. God gave into the current morals, thoughts and beliefs of the audience. That has been my experience as well. Some 40 years ago when I changed my mind and began believing in Jesus, I acted in ways that are vastly different than how I live now. However, God had to deal with me then as I was then and now as I am now. How God deals with a semi-nomadic clan is clearly different than how he would deal with someone with the perspective we have today.
Read my OP again. I did not rail against homosexuality; I said that the current Christian standpoint on homosexuality and SSM are dumb. I can still believe in the Bible as my personal belief and NOT expect to apply that to anyone else. I am responsible 100% for myself. I am precisely zero responsible for those I feel who have been reprehensible in their dealings with gays such as a Fred Phelps.
I hate to break it to you, but gay, straight, atheist or Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, there are going to be people who mistreat you. Sometimes they will do it because they are misguided in their religious beliefs, but sometimes they are just assholes who will use anything religious to mistreat others. There are plenty of nazis and neos who have dragged stuff out of the Bible to justify their hateful beliefs. The fact is that they also out of whole cloth invented a religion to do just that.
In the end, Jesus said that all sin is sin, period. Murder = stealing = lying = adultery, all the same. Should we as a country treat them differently? Of course, and we do. Can you find people who would want to stone adulterers? Of course. But then, you probably could find people who want to stone others just because they would like to. The truth is that while the vast majority of people of whatever persuasion are good and decent, there is ALWAYS that little, but loud minority of misfits who ruin it for everyone.
I have said my peace. I believe what I believe and you can think whatever you wish about it. I respectfully choose to not attack your beliefs one way or another.
We don’t care…
Left flank FORWARD!!
Where did he say that?
A gas chamber?
They do not say in English? I can give you multiple translations that all show the verse in slightly different lights, both through phrasing and word choice. Perhaps you should read the various examinations of the underlying languages, which is what I have previously tried to bring out, only to have you ignore it.
Let me put it this way: If you wrestle a gunman to the ground and save the day, do you look at your empty hands in confusion when someone walks up and says “You have eggs, man”? That’s an idiom translated from Spanish that means the same thing as “You have balls.” - You are courageous/You have courage. But that literal translation doesn’t make sense in American English because we simply don’t say it that way.
We do this ALL THE TIME in language. Referring to someplace as “Gehenna,” for instance, isn’t because it’s actually hell, but because it’s like a place of fires, which was a common concept in paganism at that point. Do you think the video “Hell’s Highway - The True Story of Highway Safety Films” is telling you that they found a highway that is hell? That leads to hell? That highway safety films are somehow leading us to hell?
Of course not. Those are all ridiculous interpretations of that title.
My point is that you seem unable or unwilling to understand a metaphor or story, as evidenced by this comment here.
I agree. Which is why researching the Bible is important. Just giving it a literal read through with no understanding leads to people being able to justify anything.
But the problem with that is, people are dicks. They will justify anything through any means necessary. There is some movement to rename a school in Florida away from it’s Confederate namesake. People are objecting…because of history. It’s been that way for 150 years, ya know? “It’s a part of our history.”
Laws before the American Civil War were that you were required to return slaves that escaped north to the slave states. People would return a slave to slavery because, you know, the law says to.
Should we abandon our history? All law? I don’t personally believe so. I believe we should examine them rigorously.
Obviously this crusade is not going to stop. Fine, carry on. I am done. :smack:
That’s a metaphor for just killing your soul, rather than burning you alive.
I’m familiar with Biblehub so I can read any version I want.
I only read English.
Great, so I expect someone translating the story to use the work balls instead of eggs, or at least add a footnote. And come to think of it, my Bible has a lot of them footnotes.
No I get metaphor just fine, but you want to make the hell part a metaphor, but the heaven part real. That’s cherry picking.
And that’s why researching Mother Goose is important, but there are so many books out there.
Damn Christians.
And the Bible says so too. A slave is a person’s property, or so God says.