I don’t see how how “Work for me and you get $1,000, if you don’t the consequence will be that I cut of Woofie’s head.” changes much by way of being a threat.
Simple. Interpretations by men from the first century or older. Do I believe that the world was created in six days? No, but that does not render the entire Bible moot. The fact is that the Bible also says that to a God, a day is as a thousand years.
Realistically, the Bible isn’t a science book nor is it a rigid historical treatise on the history of Israel. Wasn’t meant to be.
Truth be told, I believed in Jesus because of my personal experiences well before I ever knew a thing about the Bible. My anecdotal evidence to you or someone else is probably of little consequence if any, but to me, it is the whole world.
I can’t prove that my momma loves me to you or anyone else, but I sure know it to be so.
What a novel declaration.
Words to live by. 
Because it IS a threat.
“Work for me for $1000 today” is not threatening. “Work for me for $1000 today or Woofie gets it” is threatening. It’s coercion. If I threaten to harm your pet, you are more likely to take my offer.
Do you need/want $1000? If not, there’s no reason to take the offer if you want to go to a park and stare at trees. Do you not want/need $1000 but you love your dear Woofie? Then you need to take the offer to save your pet, even if you hate my guts and want nothing to do with me or my money.
It’s why we don’t honor contracts made under duress or imminent threat of bodily harm or injury. You sign on to trade your house for $12, we assume you are doing so of your own volition (and are probably needlessly rich ). You sign on to trade your house for $12 and you bring footage to the police showing the gun to your head to sign the contract, you are not bound by any single piece of that contract.
The same with Jesus’s statements in the Bible. Use his method of getting into Heaven or you don’t get there. Do you prefer the idea of a dirt nap? Don’t do what He said. Are you going to get tossed into a lake of fire? Not by His words.
Right and Jesus gives a threat. I think he specifically mentions things like a furnace of fire.
That’s more like what Jesus taught, except he’s going to cut your head off rather than your dog. I’m glad you understand the concept.
I think “or else” is VERY prevalent among most Christians. Your version seems to be or else Jesus will murder your soul, while others think it’s eternal hellfire. The latter seems worse, but the former still seems to be a substantial threat.
I was reiterating my point.
Sounds like you are trying to sugar coat a murdered soul that you seemed pretty clear about before by appealing to agnosticism.
An “eternally black nap” sounds so nice, but don’t we demonize Hitler today for giving the same to millions?
That’s what I’m getting at. Do you only cherry pick the rest of the Bible, or do you cherry pick the words of Jesus too. Sounds like you do and you have cherry picked Jesus down to just one verse.
And Jesus gave some terrible things to live by as well. Which is what I’m getting at. I think you know this, and that’s why you haven’t given a straight up answer with regards to whether you believe in all that’s attributed to Jesus or not.
So do you think you should endeavor follow all of what Jesus allegedly said in the Bible? You can answer that with a yes or no I think.
I guess your analogy with woolfie hinges on who does the actual extinguishing.
If “the soul” is something that will just naturally die, but that can be overcome by going to heaven, then you are right. It isn’t a threat to say “follow me or die.”
If it is god that actively snuffs out the soul, it does become “follow me or I will kill you.”
Exactly what happened?
No, He didn’t. He referred to throwing people to “gehenna” which was a waste zone that was burned for space quite often. There are multiple interpretations of this. The newest one is the “hell fire” that came from around 500-700 CE and developed into a major cultural icon of Catholicism and it’s subsequent branches. The word “gehenna” was frequently translated to mean “Hell” but it’s been up for debate for a lot longer than we’ve been around.
I’m not very glad to see that you missed my point.
You are implying that the natural state of things is for the soul to exist and then Jesus will end those that do not believe. What if the natural state is for the soul to cease to exist and heaven is an option extended by the divine? Ff the natural state is for souls to exist: what is their life cycle? Must there be a divine intervention to terminate them or save them?
Sounds like you are trying to spin things to reflect your own belief system instead of discussing what I have said.
There is no clear “here’s what happens in the afterlife” statements in the bible. There are metaphorical references to it throughout the Bible, but almost all of it is interpretation. See above for an example about Gehenna. To expand, there are those that say it’s most definitely a reference to hell and those that say it was a mistranslation in the 400’s CE done at the behest of Augustine and that Gehenna was reference to the rebirth of the soul through fire on judgement day, using the Valley of Hinnom (“gehenna”) as a metaphor: The trash goes in, it gets burned, the compost gets used for crops. It is reborn.
Those aren’t the only two interpretations, there are many, many more interpretations on just this word’s use, alone.
You just Godwin’d an argument. Fabulous.
That is certainly a delineation that matters. But from the life and death cycle of humans, to me, it appears natural that we get stuck in the ground (or an urn on the mantle) and end. If there is a divine salvation, it would be to extend that “spirit” in some way according to His machinations, which aren’t incredibly clear.
Yes, I understand that is the common liberal Christian shtick. So the rich man below wasn’t tormented by flame until 500-700 CE?
“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.” Luke 16:19-25
I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer used the same reasoning.
Mistranslation? So are only the bad things Jesus said likely to be mistranslation, or is there a chance the good things are too?
If Hitler’s shoe fits Jesus should wear it.
You will notice that Jesus didn’t say “You will go to hell.” during that, and that he was quite obviously telling a story meant to illustrate the that being wealthy and not caring for your fellow man will not get you into heaven, but that the beggar who is poor will get into heaven without reservation.
When I said
Did you think I was actually offering you $1,000 for a day’s work?
I wonder if Obama wants to kill us all with ACA death panels.
Feel free to bring up any other translation issues and I’ll discuss them at length with you. If you want an open-ended discussion on all mistranslations in the bible, please set aside the next two to three years and make a new thread.
Please provide a cite that shows Hitler’s and Jesus’ shoe sizes.
He was also saying what being wealthy would get you. What was that again?
Does he?
Well probably the entire Bible is suspect, is it not?
This seems a pretty good fit:
“But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.” Luke 12:5
So which is it? Did God create the world in 6 days, 6 thousand, or 6 million years? Since neither can be the slightest bit correct, why believe anything so absurd? Why would God (or a scribe) write something so ridiculous if he had the facts at his disposal? Your god is such a joker!
I’m reminded of The Thirteenth Strike Rule: If a clock strikes thirteen, not only is that false, but it casts serious doubt on the other twelve.
Considering that we’d be talking about most of humanity getting that “black nap”, the comparison is unfair to Hitler, not to the Christian God. Hitler never killed all of humanity but a few people on a boat, either. If one actually takes what they say seriously, God is portrayed as far worse than Hitler by his own followers.
Love your brother as you love yourself.
…And for that matter no one would argue that murder is considered a sin. However,
in times past, (thinking The Inquisition for one), depending on the victim, the man swinging the sword was considered a hero.
And why can’t we believe in Jesus the man and disbelieve in Xtian mythology?
No, he was talking about one of the core tenants of the Old Testament: Care for the weak and needy.
Doesn’t he?
That doesn’t mention shoe sizes.
I like that take on it. To continue the thought, though, I wonder: If you wiped out the entire earth and saved 20-100 people who then repopulated it back in ancienty times, how many did you wipe out? Would it have reached the 6-million target of the Holocaust? And, even though He was fairly blood thirsty in the Old Testament, would all of those he killed add up? It only does, in my very rough guesstimation, if we assume He is giving a black nap to everyone He deems a non believer (and that black nap means an actual killing of the “spirit.”)
Isn’t that a core tenant of the New Testament as well? Although I think we need to care about everybody, I see the wisdom of God sending His only begotten Son to care specifically for the weak and needy, as an example of what caring is.
Or else God will burn you with fire?
You brought it up, I don’t have much to say about it.
Har har.
[quote]
I like that take on it. To continue the thought, though, I wonder: If you wiped out the entire earth and saved 20-100 people who then repopulated it back in ancienty times, how many did you wipe out? Would it have reached the 6-million target of the Holocaust?
[quote]
It certainly reaches more than 6-million if you count all the damned souls that die without believing in Jesus every day.
“He” and Jesus are the same guy right?
I think the core of both Testaments is to love God or face the consequences. Being kind to others was secondary.