Here’s another vote for trying meds. I wasted five years, and changed a lot in my life that didn’t need changing, before I found out that I suffered from a stupid chemical imbalance that was perfectly treateable.
First, I think talking to a doctor or therapist is the best advice. Maybe it’s much worse than you realize. I tried therapy once in college and found it wasn’t helpful but obviously a lot of people are pleased with it.
And I’ve never been a daughter or a father so I don’t know if there’s a practical way to deliver this tip, but it sounds like at least part of her predicament could be improved by being proactive. For instance, I think your timeline is a bit off - traditional college juniors should be 20 or 21, so she’s only got a year or two on the diminutive little coeds she finds so immature and unfashionable.
But so what? If she really doesn’t like or relate well to her peers, therapy and drugs, while potentially helpful, won’t ultimately resolve that. She could find activities to do with 20 somethings out of college a few years and hopefully feel a lot more fulfilled socially. I wouldn’t judge anybody for taking medication or seeing a therapist. The one time I was depressed, in college, it seemed completely unrelated to anything going on around me. But your daughter seems bothered by pretty specific things, so why not fix them?
Her university probably has a mental health/counseling office where she can get an appointment with little or no hassle. This is one route she could take, and one that has worked for me in the past as a first step. She is paying for it via student fees (or you are.)
Also, yeah, realize that you can’t talk her out of her problems. Especially if talking to her about her problems makes you angry. It does sound like you two talk and get along – she tells you about school, grades, her not-button nose, the jerk DJ she has to deal with, etc. These are not things that every 22 year old talks about with her dad. I think you should just … keep talking to her, and keep listening. If she starts on a self-deprecating spiral then find something else to say besides telling her how she should think/react. If she complains about the jerk DJ then tell her about some asshat you have to deal with at work, that sort of thing. Or just say that you’re sorry she’s upset. (I can’t tell you how many times all I wanted to hear was “I’m sorry you’re upset.”) Again, you can’t solve her problems, but sometimes just having someone to talk to and take your mind off things is enough to make you want to start fresh the next day.
Maybe it’s much less serious than you think.
Because it’s not the “things” that are the problem – it’s her perception and feelings about those things.
Okay, from the OP:
In other words, she is very active.
Then:
So, she *told * you she has this suffocating anxiety. Does she demonstrate it? Hard to be suffocatingly anxious without showing it in some way. Seems to me that she is self-diagnosing and exaggerating in that diagnosis. Or, at least she was exaggerating until you made things worse by dismissing her feelings, and then she was *really *anxious.
Of course, she can be suffering and not showing it, or she is showing it and you’re not noticing. But, she told this today, right? And, because of one conversation today, some posters are suggesting therapy and medication??
She’s worried about her body image, she’s not getting along with some girls, she thinks boys are boring, and she doesn’t like some things that her DJ mentor does or says. How is that any different from every other girl her age, or, for that matter, in many ways the same as practically every adult?
It’s quite possible that next week someone will tell her how hot and statuesque she is, and she’ll meet a boy or a girl is not boring, and have a laugh with her DJ friend.
Or not. But, here’s a suggestion: Listen to what she says and acknowledge her feelings. And, watch for any indication that things are getting worse … or better.
So what? God forbid somebody go to an unnecessary doctor appointment?
Says some guy on the Internet who never met her? The perception and feelings about the women and men she goes to college with don’t have to be wrong just because you say so. Not everybody likes everybody else. Maybe the guys really aren’t her type. Maybe the women are a lot less mature than the girl. astro didn’t mention anything about having a many of close friends. Having lots of close friends is very important to one’s mental health. If she really doesn’t like the people she goes to school with, why not meet other people?
astro, if she’s telling you these things, then she’s telling you she needs professional help. Maybe she’s already in therapy and was looking for a way to let you know, and now she feels you’ve made light of the whole situation. If she’s not already in therapy and/or taking medication then she needs to be evaluated. The most helpful thing you can do would be to suggest that she do that, and if she doesn’t have access to this help via the student medical services then you should help her find someone. If unsure where to turn then she can start with her personal physician.
Wait, I didn’t say that she shouldn’t see a doctor. I just don’t get why that’s the preferred option in this case, or why this is any different from the usual doubts and anxiety that every young person has, and that resolve themselves with no professional intervention.
Or are you suggesting that every instance of teenage angst requires a visit to a doctor?
I didn’t say her perception and feelings were “wrong”. I said they were the problem, in a very simple sense: Her anxiety is the problem. Otherwise, there’d be no reason to address anything in this thread, or to suggest that she go see a doctor.
She is going to school, she is working at Macy’s, and she is a part-time radio DJ. It’s pretty obvious that she is exposed to many different people. Where do you suggest she should meet other people that she might like?
Okay, I realize that I’m suggesting that she shouldn’t see a doctor. I also realize, though, that I could be wrong.
As someone who has a lot of the same tendencies toward anxiety that your daughter has, this is one of the worst possible things you could have said to her. Here’s the thing about anxiety–it can drive you to do great things, but you still feel like total shit even if you know you’re kicking ass and taking names. There will always be something more you could have or should have done, or something you should have done differently, and you will dwell on these things in ways that normal people will not. To tell someone who thinks like this that they are “self-indulgent” and that “people will not like them” only feeds the insecurities they already have.
Therapy helped me a lot–mainly I learned that perfectionism is evil–I was always a bit of a perfectionist and would give up because I felt like I couldn’t do things right or give them the attention that they needed. My therapist explained that a 90% was still an A, and helped me learn to prioritize a lot better. The other thing that is really hard to learn at your daughter’s age is that she can’t control everything–the only thing you can do is control yourself and your reactions to things. My anxiety is MUCH better now, and although becoming a parent has caused it to flare up a bit, I’m much better now at rolling with the punches than I was.
Because astro’s explanation of the situation suggested it was more than teenage angst. Also she’s 22. I’m not going to argue about whether some guy on the Internet’s description of his daughter warrants a free visit to the college mental health office or not. It’s just a little too silly for me.
We’ll just have to disagree. I think if the girl was just unhappy with her peers and feeling unattractive it’d be worthwhile for her to improve her situation. Instead she’s unhappy with her peers and feeling self conscious about her height and nose and suffering from crippling depression and anxiety to boot. I just think it makes sense to address the underlying issues at the same time.
Another vote for therapy. I’m sure you’re a good dad, but there’s only so much you can do.
I hate to see a young woman not appreciating herself and wasting so much time on negativity. Hopefully a good therapist can help her reframe her thinking and start moving in a positive direction.
I’ll change my opinion to this: I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about.
:smack:
22 is an age where, to a certain extent, it is normal to have some anxiety, uncertainty, and self-consciousness. It is also an age when mental illness manifests or becomes apparent (they can also start in the teens, but not become noticed until that age - you did that this "stinkin’ thinkin’ started in her teens, right?).
There are three possibilities here:
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She’s a perfectly normal 22 year old and her anxieties and concerns are at normal levels and she was just venting at you. This is actually a sign of trust and closeness, but the OP, being a man, reacted as a man (he tried to “fix things”, point out errors in thinking, etc.) and not as a woman (sympathetic ear, empathic responses, etc.). She may still be working out that men and women do approach things differently and was not expecting the OP’s response.
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She’s a mentally healthy 22 year old who has fallen into some bad mental habits. We all have these - someone spends a lifetime not liking their feet, or is disorganized in some aspect of life, or has trouble prioritizing or whatever. Sometimes, a non-related third party is needed to deal with the problem. This is a case where “talk therapy” of some sort may be of benefit, to find ways to interrupt the feedback cycles that maintain this sort of situation, in order to generate positive feedback of healthy behaviors and attitudes. Sometimes people use a “life coach” because it sounds better than “therapist” I guess.
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She’s clinically depressed or has an anxiety disorder or some other mental illness. These are currently believed to stem from actual chemical imbalances in the brain. Telling someone to “think better” or get a better attitude won’t fix it as the brain, the organ, isn’t quite normal. Telling someone to change this mood/feeling/problem by an act of will is like telling someone with poor vision that if they just try harder they’ll be able to see 20/20. They don’t need to “try harder”, they need glasses. Likewise, for some of these mental disorders we now have medication that helps the brain function more normally. When such a person says that a feeling of worthlessness is “innate” they might be speaking the literal truth - their negative feelings are coming from a chemical imbalance in the brain.
The thing is, none of us here can tell from your post which of these three is the case. From a statistical standpoint, #1 is most common and most likely. #2 is serious, but can be fixed if she wants to change although she may need help with it. #3 is the most serious, and will likely require lifetime maintenance.
The fact she is active, bright, successful, etc. does not eliminate the possibility of depression or anxiety disorder. I know this because my eldest sister was a very high functioning person with clinical depression who was active, successful, and much beloved. She was still depressed. She spent many, many years in therapy and struggled all her life with the problem, although she seldom revealed that to any but her closest relatives and friends.
Next time she brings this up don’t try to “fix” the problem, ask her if she’s given any thought as to how she’d like things to be different. Suggest a neutral third party, or campus counseling services. Tell her you’re glad she feels comfortable sharing this with her, although you are at a loss for how she should proceed. Commiserate with her a little, agree that being all grown up isn’t always fun and that the weight of responsibilities and dealing with people can be a drag. If she ASKS DIRECTLY “what should I do” then offer suggestions, but unless you hear that direct question it’s more a matter that she’s letting you know how she feels than that she’s coming to you for solutions. Let her know that you love her and that if she decides that talking to a counselor or getting therapy is the way to go that you’ll support her all the way (you will, won’t you? You do want your daughter’s problems solved, right?) and you won’t think less of her. She’s an adult now and you respect her ability to make decisions.
I do think the people who are suggesting that this person they have never met resort to medication right off the bat are out of line (my opinion) as evaluating whether or not that is needed is something for a professional to decided after actually seeing and talking to the person in question. I am, however, concerned that she is still feeling bad despite being successful in many ways. As you pointed out, she should be feeling happy, or at least content. Holding a job and getting good grades and being involved in another activity would seem to indicate she DOES have her priorities in order, wouldn’t it?
IF she is suffering from a biochemistry problem, such as an anxiety disorder, then it is innate and she really doesn’t have control over it. Becoming angry or irritated at her for this is like being angry at a diabetic for not producing enough insulin, or someone with a thyroid problem for having a defective gland.
OK, yes, I have a definite concern and bias here - keep in mind that I don’t know your daughter and I’m doing solely on your OP, seasoned with my own concerns and past baggage.
I’m Broomstick’s type 3 - and have been since I was your daughter’s age. Here are some things about me…
No one can tell when I’m really anxious or depressed until I lose it. I’m really good at hiding my state from the outside world and not burdening people with my own illness. So if I’m saying something to someone, I’m saying “I’m about to lose it.”
I’m not always medicated - in fact, generally I function fine without it. Over twenty one years I’ve been on medication for three periods, never longer than two years. This seems to get my brain chemistry ‘rebalanced’ and then I go off it for five or ten years. I really dislike medication - not because of side effects - I’ve never had anything significant - but because I’m one of those people who doesn’t like medication on principle.
Anxiety in particular can be dangerous - I get this genetically from both sides of my family - and alcoholism runs deep in the family as well. That is because drinking is such an easy way to self medicate anxiety. It works - it will just ruin your life and then kill you.
I don’t get a lot of benefit from therapy - after 23 years of this, I’m pretty self aware. My life is great, I know that intellectually - but my brain can not stop being anxious. Some people, however, do get benefit from therapy, and if your daughter is really ill, my initial approach was a two pronged “therapy and medication” approach. I’ve done just therapy - and while it keeps me from falling off the edge, its a huge commitment in time and I don’t get ‘better.’ Medication is almost no commitment in time, and I do end up feeling better, not just ‘this keeps me from the edge.’
I’m active, bright and successful. I have two wonderful kids and a successful marriage. I have a great career. I have a nice house. I’m financially well off. I’m healthy - with the exception of my brain chemistry occasionally setting me off. My coworkers would be shocked to know how close to the edge I’ve been around them, and that I’m someone who is “mentally ill.”
My biggest fear is that I’m not self aware enough to medicate before I lose it. It hasn’t happened yet, but I really don’t want to ever end up in lockdown. That would end the illusion I’m able to maintain with the outside world. But medication really, sincerely, is a lifesaver. Without it, I’d probably have followed the alcohol path, because the anxiety and depression is intolerable when it is bad. When I was younger, it would have been the suicide path.
I have no idea what your daughter’s state is, but I think if she is communicating a lot of anxiety to you, its worth it for you to suggest she see a mental health professional and be supportive of the idea. It takes a lot for us “active, bright, successful” people to admit we need help - and sometimes what we need is permission from the people who think we are most perfect to be imperfect and get help.
I started having depression in my teens, and it grew worse in my 20’s. People’s advice? Get over it. Gain some confidence. Quit feeling sorry for yourself. Be positive. All of that cliche bullshit.
I met my husband 8 years ago, and after dating for awhile came right out and told me “This is not normal, you are sick and it’s NOT YOUR FAULT”. Those words made me cry, the first time someone aknowledged my pain and finally treated it like something more than pity. I saw my doctor, got on medicine, and I have been 90% better ever since. God bless that man!
OP, I’m a co-leader of a local anxiety support group. If you’d like to discuss this with me, please PM me. One thing I’ll say here is that your daughter is right about one thing - if you don’t have anxiety issues, you probably don’t understand what she is dealing with (which is not a criticism of you, just a fact of life).
Better yet, have your daughter PM me.
Astro, where are you located? PM me if you don’t wish to put it on the public board.
I shared the thread with my daughter last night so she can evaluate the advice given. I thank everyone for their suggestions, it generally helps to get another perspective on things.
Broomstick summed up your situation pretty well.
She could be depressed and anxious, or it’s possible she’s only exaggerating. You can still have anxiety problems even if you have a job and you’re very active. I worry about the fact that she’s feeling tense in the morning. Most people just worry about things before they go to sleep and then feel better in the morning. If your mental issues stay with you through the night, then it could be a serious problem.
The best solution would be for her to talk to someone who knows a lot about depression and anxiety so that he or she can determine how bad her problem is. If she feels that it’s ruining her life then I think she should definitely see someone.
I would still be cautious with the doctors who are quick with the prescriptions. Make sure she finds someone who actually listens to her problems and doesn’t just try to fix her through trial and error.
The anxiety could only show up in certain situations. Also, some of us get decent at hiding it, especially from someone who doesn’t want to see it. It really isn’t that hard with most people to hide things they don’t want to see from them. No parent (except ones who have something like Munchausen syndrome by proxy) wants to see something serious wrong with their kid.