My Downstairs Neighbor is an Abusive Bitch

[Labelless]

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
A few points: First, the OP said in the very first post that she had written a letter to the neighbor.

Second, if I hear kick, yelp, loud thud, I’m thinking, someone kicked the dog and it hit the floor; not, “Oh, the loving dog owner that screams constantly at her animal probably just tripped over something in her apartment.”

Third, I don’t know about animals, but as for kids, yelling at them constantly isn’t really all that healthy, even if you’re “just a yeller” and that’s just how you are, going through life yelling at people and animals around you. :rolleyes:

And finally, the OP actually seemed fairly rational, calm, and collected to me, especially compared with the angry, vitriolic screeds you’ve been posting in this thread. Dude, there are other ways to interact with people than by yelling at them. Even on the Internet. Maybe you should give it a try sometime.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you MsWhatsit, you’ve said it more eloquently than I did.

curlcoat, you claim to have worked in shelters and harbored a man accused of abuse. I never said someone shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt, people get reported to the authorities all the time. Thats what the authorities are paid to do, investigate and intervene if necessary. If the neighbor in question loses her business, it would be her fault, because she was either abusive or doing it illegally. How could you possibly side with that?

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
A few points: First, the OP said in the very first post that she had written a letter to the neighbor.
[/QUOTE]

If I remember correctly, she wrote the letter the same day or the day before she contacted the authorities? If so, that really isn’t talking with the neighbor about the issue. And we don’t even know if the OP signed her name or anything.

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
Second, if I hear kick, yelp, loud thud, I’m thinking, someone kicked the dog and it hit the floor; not, “Oh, the loving dog owner that screams constantly at her animal probably just tripped over something in her apartment.”
[/QUOTE]

Why? What is it about the world today that people automatically assume and accuse abuse based on almost nil evidence? The OP didn’t hear a kick, she heard a noise she thought was a kick, and I don’t think she said she heard a loud thud - if I remember correctly she said she heard something that sounded like the dog hitting the floor. Dogs hit floors when they jump off of couches, why must we all run to judge in the worst way possible? Why the race to point fingers? This is the part I really don’t get. No proof at all of abuse but let’s all run off to get the dog taken away and thrown into the pound!

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
Third, I don’t know about animals, but as for kids, yelling at them constantly isn’t really all that healthy, even if you’re “just a yeller” and that’s just how you are, going through life yelling at people and animals around you. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Well, it’s worked for generations in my family and for decades with my dogs, and I have multiple obedience trial champions. One cannot earn OTCh points with a dog that is “unhealthy” because I tend to yell.

Also, once again you jump to a negative conclusion based on very little in the way of facts. I said I tend to yell, not that I do it constantly or am going through life yelling at people and animals around me. ( :rolleyes: right back at you)

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
And finally, the OP actually seemed fairly rational, calm, and collected to me, especially compared with the angry, vitriolic screeds you’ve been posting in this thread. Dude, there are other ways to interact with people than by yelling at them. Even on the Internet. Maybe you should give it a try sometime.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not a dude. And if you think I have been posting angry, vitriolic screeds, you are reading some bias of yours into my posts as I am not in one bit angry - I have no horse in this race other than prior experience. Remember my first post, trying to inject some rationality into the OP’s emotional outburst and the pile on that was coming after it? I have been there done this WRT both dog and child abuse, and what has been going in with most of the posts in here is classic overreaction. I take it that you would rather attempt to ruin someones livelyhood and maybe life based on almost zero facts rather than take a chance that someone somewhere isn’t following your idea of ideal dog ownership? Because once you start that ball rolling, depending on the particular city, this could get very ugly for the neighbor and it could be simply because the OP doesn’t like the fact she yells. But hey, it’s so much better than noone take any chance that abuse get by and all of the innocent accused should just be glad that there are so many around running their lives for them.

Kathy

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=Labelless]
Thank you MsWhatsit, you’ve said it more eloquently than I did.

curlcoat, you claim to have worked in shelters and harbored a man accused of abuse. I never said someone shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt, people get reported to the authorities all the time. Thats what the authorities are paid to do, investigate and intervene if necessary. If the neighbor in question loses her business, it would be her fault, because she was either abusive or doing it illegally. How could you possibly side with that?
[/QUOTE]

Because, apparently, you don’t know what might happen. It all depends on the individual city, but for the most part the authorities don’t have time to investigate - funding for animal control is almost always dismal. The average reaction is to ask the OP if she wants to press charges of abuse and if the answer is yes, the dog goes to the pound pending trial and the neighbor gets to prove she is innocent. She’ll have fun proving a negative…

WRT her business, we have no idea if she was doing it illegally, that was just one of the pile ons that came later in this thread. Another pile on was someone suggested that the OP take out an ad and try to contact the people that bring the neighbor dogs to babysit and tell them that she is abusing dogs. So, people think it is ok to ruin this woman’s business because one person thinks she might have heard abuse?

Now, let me tell you what happened to the guy that lived here for almost a year. He drove home from work on a Friday and found a notice from the county sheriff on the door to his condo barring him from entering, and his key didn’t work. Upon inquiry, he found that his girlfriend, who had been living there with him, had accused him of abusing her two daughters (who had also been living there) with no proof. Or apparently, based on later developments, any offer of proof. Based on only that, the sheriff locked him out of the home he owned, allowed her to continue to live there rent free (she had no claim to the condo) while the wheels of “justice” started grinding. Since I didn’t pry I didn’t get the blow by blow details, but apparently the girlfriend was able to delay by saying the daughters were too traumatized to give statments and stuff like that until almost a year went by and a trial date was finally set. A year and this guy couldn’t go in his home to even get his clothes! The sheriff and child services didn’t care he had almost zero clothes, not a lot of money and as far as they knew, no place to live. For a year. Based simply on one woman saying he had abused her kids, without even offering any proof.

What does that have to do with pets you say? Some cities are nearly as bad about charges of pet abuse as they are about child abuse. Many, maybe even most, will remove the dog from the home and dump it in the pound while they investigate, if they do. Some don’t investigate, they just set a court date so the dog sits in the pound until after the court rules. Unless there is an appeal. Do you really think it is best for the dog for that to happen based on maybe there might have been some abuse heard thru a door? Wouldn’t it be better to talk with the owner, maybe observe a bit longer, for the sake of the dog if nothing else? Why the rush to point fingers at the owner and maybe end up killing the dog?

Kathy

[MsWhatsit]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
If I remember correctly
[/quote]

@curlcoat

if I remember correctly

I don’t have much of a dog in this fight (ha!) but wanted to hijack briefly to say that this irritates me in Internet discourse. You don’t have to remember anything correctly. Look at the damn OP. It’s at the top of the page. The facts you are attempting to remember are either there, or not.

Sorry I called you a dude.

And as far as reading personal experiences into the facts of this thread, I would only point out that you just used a personal anecdote about a man losing his children under terrible circumstances to try to prove your point about how people should just ignore someone who appears to be abusing her dogs. Sometimes people really are abusing their dogs or kids. And if someone is constantly screaming at their animal and I’m hearing thumps and yelps from their apartment? Yeah, I don’t have a problem with someone calling the appropriate agency to investigate that. You’re right - that’s NOT my idea of proper dog ownership! I would hope that it isn’t anyone’s.

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
Yeah, I don’t have a problem with someone calling the appropriate agency to investigate that.
[/QUOTE]
Did anyone do that? Is the SPCA an investigative agency?

[Sailboat]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
I yell simply because that is who I am, and my dogs don’t care
[/quote]

I’m pretty dubious that dogs don’t care about being yelled at. Every one I’ve ever seen seemed to care. And “that is who I am” isn’t a defense in itself…Jack the Ripper was just being himself, eh?

Lifting the dog by the collar could have been a momentary frustration that hasn’t been repeated and that action in itself didn’t sound bad at all.

Depends on context. Dog is trying to wolf down rat poison, yank on the collar. Dog is taking too long to smell a tree, your TV program is starting soon, don’t lift by collar.

As for the kicking, I honestly don’t think if a Chihuahua had been kicked, there would only have been one yelp.

This seems to be purely speculative, as you assert the OP’s interpretation of the noises was. If the OP can’t speculate, how come you can?

@from a later post by curlcoat

I have been there done this WRT both dog and child abuse

Is there a story behind this? Are you saying someone accused you of abuse? Is that why this is a hot button for you? (I’m not using that necessarily to invalidate your concerns, but if there’s more story lurking behind that comment, it might be helpful to hear it.)

Sailboat

[WF_Tomba]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
I yell simply because that is who I am
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, we can tell.

[frog_princess]

It may depend on where you live, Contrapuntal but the SPCA does have law enforcement capabilities.
MSPCA

[Sticks_and_Scones]

Just wanted to say: Good job, Sailboat! Excellent points.

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=frog princess]
It may depend on where you live, Contrapuntal but the SPCA does have law enforcement capabilities.
MSPCA
[/QUOTE]

Well, that would do it. All we have to establish now is whether the OP is within that jurisdiction, or a similar one. She remains silent on the point.

[curlcoat]

I didn’t find time to get to this yesterday and now my guest time has expired. So I plunked down my $14.95 to finish this off, but I doubt I’ll get my money’s worth since I haven’t noticed much desire to get straight dope on this board. But, anyway…

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
I don’t have much of a dog in this fight (ha!) but wanted to hijack briefly to say that this irritates me in Internet discourse. You don’t have to remember anything correctly. Look at the damn OP. It’s at the top of the page. The facts you are attempting to remember are either there, or not.
[/QUOTE]

I should have in the case of this thread, because I forgot it is only on one page. I tend to avoid clicking around trying to get non-essential facts straight, because I’m on dial up and shouldn’t be spending time here to begin with. It’s a bad habit.

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
Sorry I called you a dude.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don’t care, I was just setting the record straight. I do sign all my post tho.

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
And as far as reading personal experiences into the facts of this thread, I would only point out that you just used a personal anecdote about a man losing his children under terrible circumstances to try to prove your point about how people should just ignore someone who appears to be abusing her dogs.
[/QUOTE]

You missed my whole point with that. For one thing, those weren’t his kids and as it turned out, when the girlfriend fled to Florida, she left the kids here with her mother. What he lost was access to everything he owned except his car and one set of clothes, for almost a year. And I told that story to point out what happens to the innocent when folks rush to judge and tattle. My point about reading personal bias into what has been said about the neighbor and her dog was that a majority of the people in this thread seem to be just jumping on the emotion bandwagon without stopped to realize that there is very little in the way of actual abuse proof, and what will happen should the authorities decide to investigate.

[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
Sometimes people really are abusing their dogs or kids. And if someone is constantly screaming at their animal and I’m hearing thumps and yelps from their apartment? Yeah, I don’t have a problem with someone calling the appropriate agency to investigate that. You’re right - that’s NOT my idea of proper dog ownership! I would hope that it isn’t anyone’s.
[/QUOTE]

Well, of course sometimes there really is abuse, but some screaming and a one time yelp is far from proof of abuse. What does the dog look like? How does it act? Has there been any more yelping going on? What do the owners of the dogs that are left in her care say about her? Why start a ball rolling that could end up flattening an innocent person, as in my story about the guy who lived with us. His girlfriend reported him for abuse out of spite, but no matter what the intentions, the results are the same for an innocent person accused of something they aren’t doing.

Kathy

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=Sailboat]
I’m pretty dubious that dogs don’t care about being yelled at. Every one I’ve ever seen seemed to care. And “that is who I am” isn’t a defense in itself…Jack the Ripper was just being himself, eh?

[/QUOTE]

Hardly. Jack the Ripper was a serial killer, I am just someone who is more likely to yell at the dogs from my chair when they are ripping up the backyard rather than get up and physically stop them from doing it. As for whether or not they care about it, I suppose I could video tape my backyard for you, but all I can tell you is sometimes I’m lucky to even get their attention when I yell, much less them showing any distress from it. And, as I said earlier, 40 years in dogs including some who have won high awards and titles in precision work - I really doubt that my tendency to yell is doing much to their psyches.

[QUOTE=Sailboat]

Depends on context. Dog is trying to wolf down rat poison, yank on the collar. Dog is taking too long to smell a tree, your TV program is starting soon, don’t lift by collar.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly. All we hear is the dog was lifted up by the collar, nothing about the context or whether this is a common event. And, we also don’t know if the dog was “yanked” by the collar or just briefly lifted, which is something that is quite easy to do with toy dogs.
(How do I teach the board to copy everything in a post? I keep forgetting it only copies the new part, not what that person quoted)

I said - “As for the kicking, I honestly don’t think if a Chihuahua had been kicked, there would only have been one yelp.”

Sailboat says - This seems to be purely speculative, as you assert the OP’s interpretation of the noises was. If the OP can’t speculate, how come you can?

For one thing, I am speculating based on decades of experience, but also my speculation won’t lead to reporting an innocent to authorities. If I had been outside the door and heard it myself, my speculation might be different but I still wouldn’t go off calling anyone based on what I had heard thru a door.

Originally Posted by from a later post by curlcoat -
I have been there done this WRT both dog and child abuse

Sailboat - Is there a story behind this? Are you saying someone accused you of abuse? Is that why this is a hot button for you? (I’m not using that necessarily to invalidate your concerns, but if there’s more story lurking behind that comment, it might be helpful to hear it.)

Sailboat
[/QUOTE]

The subject is a “hot button” for me because I am sick of that kinder gentler American thing being taken to the point that parents can’t discipline kids and one yelp means abuse. No, I haven’t been accused of abuse - with the child abuse, I am talking about the guy in the story above, and with the dogs I am talking about the work I used to do in shelters

On the flip side of that, while I was still teaching obedience classes to the public, I would get these owners in with dogs that were completely out of control - biting, growling, snapping, resource guarding - you name it. There wasn’t anything actually wrong with the dogs, they had been created to be this way by owners that were afraid to do anything that might bring a yelp of surprise from Fluffy and Pookie. In that case it is due to owners not treating a dog as an animal, but owners like that also tend to think everyone else is abusing their dog because everyone else isn’t on their knees begging Fifi to quit biting the neighborhood kids.

Kathy

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=WF Tomba]
Yeah, we can tell.
[/QUOTE]

You can tell what by the fact that I am Irish and I yell? Yelling isn’t a sin and it certainly isn’t necessarily abusive.

Kathy

[WF_Tomba]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
You can tell what by the fact that I am Irish and I yell? Yelling isn’t a sin and it certainly isn’t necessarily abusive.
[/QUOTE]

I can tell by your posts to this thread that you are a loud, annoying person. (Or, as you like to put it, “Irish” :rolleyes: .)

[Omegaman]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
I didn’t find time to get to this yesterday and now my guest time has expired. So I plunked down my $14.95 to finish this off, but I doubt I’ll get my money’s worth since I haven’t noticed much desire to get straight dope on this board. But, anyway…
[/QUOTE]

Don’t be so whiney. You already fit right in here.

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=WF Tomba]
I can tell by your posts to this thread that you are a loud, annoying person. (Or, as you like to put it, “Irish” :rolleyes: .)
[/QUOTE]

Shrug. If you want to make gratuitous insults, you are merely strengthening my opinion of this boards desire to actually deal with ignorance. You don’t like the reality of long term experience because it doesn’t fit your comfort level, so you just try to get the messenger to go away. Won’t change the facts. :rolleyes: right back at ya.

Kathy

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Don’t be so whiney. You already fit right in here.
[/QUOTE]

Not whiny, just an assumption based on my experience here so far. Once this thread runs out I highly doubt I will have the interest to come back here.

Kathy

[storyteller0910]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
You don’t like the reality of long term experience because it doesn’t fit your comfort level, so you just try to get the messenger to go away. Won’t change the facts. :rolleyes: right back at ya.

Kathy
[/QUOTE]

Wait, do you have a lot of experience with dogs? Because you haven’t mentioned your background at all in this thread, and I for one am wondering about it.

[curlcoat]

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
Wait, do you have a lot of experience with dogs? Because you haven’t mentioned your background at all in this thread, and I for one am wondering about it.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have several times but not at any length. If links are allowed here, I can post to my site and you can see essentially all of my doggy history there (as well as pictures of my old, fat self…) The short verson is that I started in 4-H 40 years ago and have been training dogs in a variety of sports continually since then. Over the years I’ve taught public and private classes; volunteered in shelters as a groomer, temperament assessor, trainer and rescue rep; done way too much work fixing training mistakes made by novice owners and faddists (ah, well, it was profitable when I had acreage); have been bitten by uncounted numbers of spoiled rotten dogs whose owners would never raise their voices to the little monster running their homes; have studied genetics, temperament, training theory and method - well, this is no longer the short version. If you have any specific questions, let me know!

Kathy

[Fuji]

[QUOTE=curlcoat]
Not whiny, just an assumption based on my experience here so far. Once this thread runs out I highly doubt I will have the interest to come back here.

Kathy
[/QUOTE]

Don’t let 'em run you out of town. It’s just part of the group dynamic here. It’s still a great place to hang out, and there are plenty of other dog-lovers on the boards.

FWIW, based on what I’ve read in this thread, I’m more inclined to believe your version of events than the OP’s, if only because no one has seemed to address a critical point:

If the neighbor was abusing the dogs, why would the owners continue to entrust her with their dogs?

Dogs aren’t that stupid. A dog that was actually being abused would almost certainly: 1) demonstrate markedly different behavior patterns at home, and 2) be very reluctant to return to the home of their abuser. Now, it’s possible that a dog might be being abused and not show these signs (aside from any possible physical injuries, of course), or that a dog might be abused and show these effects, but the owner is oblivious. However, I find those to be less likely explanations of the events at hand than that the OP simply misinterpreted what she earlier heard and saw.