My God, just when I think I can no longer be shocked...

The BBQ Pit
21

While impalement, crucifiction, drawing and quatering, etc, might not not seem inappropriate for these monsters, child sexual abuse cases need to be prosecuted with extreme care. As evidenced by the reactions in this thread, little gets people more angry than the idea of a child being victimized by an adult. The “witch hunts” that have sometimes resulted are just as deplorable as the acts with which the accused have been charged.

Wish I could remember some specific cases to cite, there was that really famous one in California in the early/mid 80’s, also the Janet Reno one down in Florida, and others.

22

The McMartin preschool case and the Wenachee Washington case. Just to name two. Child sexual abuse is the Salem witch trials of the modern era.

As for the 1 of 3 girls being sexually abused that sounds crazy. Remember many people make their careers on this type of thing and have much money to gain by makeing things sound worse than they are. Since the internet is mostly anonomus we could do a simple non-scientific pole. If there are 100 women posters on the SD board about 33 of they should have been sexually abused. It seems unlikely.

23

Well, now I can chalk up another example why I think the Bible is fiction.

24

Umm, yes it is the word of G-d, but it is not His command- it is his curse of what will happen to the Isrealites if they do not “hearken unto the voice of…G-d”. They will also be (16) “cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field” (18) “cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land,…” (28)The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness…". (45)Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, …till thou be destroyed: because thou hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord". Not instructions, or commands- a warning of a curse. What Zev was talking about is that some jews beleive that the curse DID come about (some 1000 years later), as they did eat their children (after they starved to death- we think) when the Romans besieged Jerusalem, and destroyed the Temple. Cannabalism often occured during sieges. In other words- they did not eat the children because of what was in the Bible- but because they did that, and many other orrible things came to pass- folks think that the prophesy came to be. Maybe.

And, Sue- the siege of Jerusalem does not occur in the Bible- it is part of Roman history- about AD70.

25

Sue Duhnym,

How do the horrific conditions of a city under seige relate to the possibility of the bible being fiction? I don’t follow your logic here…
Zev Steinhardt

26

Want to read something really telling…try digesting this…www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/7173/ph-abuse.htm

Needs2know

27

Labdude- remember that “sexual abuse” can be a very broad catagory. Many women who may not have been raped may very well have been touched inappropriately or something along those lines.

I have always wondered what might have happened if a particular one of my parents friends had ever caught me alone- this would be the guy (a dad himself) who watched my friend and I changing clothes on a multi-family trip when we were about 12 or 13. Didn’t even try to hide the fact that he was looking.

I didn’t understand it at the time, but looking back it could have been very dangerous.

28

I know that an accusation can have far reaching consequences and that overzealousness (is that a word?) can lead to false accsations and witch hunting (referring to the cautions). Also, iampunha, I am really sorry that you have something so terrible in your family history.
Having said that, I will stand by my ill-wishing of the subject of the OP because 1) he was a convicted felon, not a casually accused person and 2) the minute he went from being a victim to an abuser he lost my sympathy. I realize that one leads to the other, but there just is no excuse for treating a child that way. I don’t know if jail counseling would have helped, but I would not be willing to try it out with my child’s as the “tester” to see if he will still molest and rape; I hope his victims wouldn’t be either.

29

a moment, if you will allow about incarceration.

Many people seem to think that incarceration all by itself isn’t much of a punishment. Please do NOT construe the following to suggest that “aw the poor criminals, they’re being treated too harshly” but, I think it’s helpful for people to have a good idea of what incarceration means.

In the first place, unless you’re assigned to an outdoor work crew, you’re pretty much indoors most of the day, all of the year. Don’t think that sounds bad? I remember being in the hospital for a week, and ill as I was, what I really missed was fresh air, seeing the sky etc.

Every single aspect of your life is monitored and controlled by others. What time you wake up, when and what for lunch, what detergent you use, deoderant etc.

less than zero privacy. Most share a cell, you’re watched as you sleep, shower, urinate etc. No time alone. No peace from noises/ Everyone always remembers the first time they hear that jail door close. Letters to and from you are read by others. Your property may be searched anytime. You may be searched anytime, including strip searches.

Contacts with your family and loved ones are limited and monitored. (we’ve already covered letters), phone calls are always expensively collect and limited in time and number. visitors can be subject to body cavity searches and are often limited to certain people, always limited to certain days and times. Your visits are not private.

Property. Well, southern style yea, there’s tv. but for example, in MI, the tv must be black and white and cost less than $100. There’s I think exactly ONE place that still manufactures black and white tvs and they only do it for prisons. THe GUARDS want tvs. Why? because it becomes an effective management tool (screw up , loose tv for 2 weeks). If you’re not forced to wear uniforms, you are still restricted as to how many items of clothing you may have etc. NO packages can come from outside. Your mom cannot send you some new underwear. You can only purchase it through the inmate store.

Over and beyond all of that is the mind numbing boring nothing to do and all the time in the world to do it in, day after day after day… all while surrounded by lots of people who are really very dangerous.

all of this for years and years. With ever changing rules about what you need to do to get out.

Again. My point is that incarceration IS a very serious punishment and should not be treated lightly.

30

Geez, Needs, that was one hell of an article. My husband and I have this argument all the time, and I think this prove my point 150%: People who long for “the good old days” are totally clueless about what “the good old days” were really like.

31

Hey, I agree that being in jail or prison is a punishment. For some it is almost unbearable. I also believe that there are instances in which the ultimate punishment may be appropriate.

I know it does my karma no good to wish this man ill, but I guess I’ll just have to live with it.

32

Don’t worry I think the good old days started somewhere right around the ent of the 1940s beginning of the 1950s. Before that children were often left on their own, traded as commodities, farmed out for work detail, etc. etc. etc.

Article scares the hell out of me. I’d hate to see the trend swing back in that direction wouldn’t you?

Needs2know

33

Hi wring,

This being the PIT, I probably don’t need to wander off on some long monologue but I certainly feel one coming on…

Prison is not a place I want to be. It’s confining (duh), lonely, depressing, and a whole host of other negatives. But it is, after all, punishment. To my way of thinking it’s not severe enough punishment, though it isn’t necessarily the right kind of punishment.

Many of the down sides of incarceration reinforce my position that there are not enough punishment options. Instead of giving a 17 year old habitual offender 12 months in prison and 5 years of probation for grand-theft auto, some extension of corporal punishment may be much more effective.

To put the mind in a place of helplessness and hopelessness while subjecting it to depression and isolation seems a much more cruel form of punishment than does the cane. The concept of “go to your room” or “timeout” may have an impact with some children, but I’ve never spoken with anyone that viewed it as a harsher or more effective punishment than their father’s belt across their backside (among people that view both as acceptable punishment). Fear of pain can be a much greater motivation than fear of depression – after all, those that perform criminal acts are often already in a mental state similar to the one that results from the infamous “timeout”.

Prison needs to be a place that once experienced, provides its own motivation for avoiding a repeated visit. I have no idea what that extra incentive is. I’m not comfortable with jailers administering physical pain – at least not “in private”. Perhaps public caning is the way to go.
One of the things that really bothers me is how DNA is going to come into play. Many physical characteristics are functions of genes passed from one generation to the next. Height, body type, hair color, eye color, skin texture are but a few inherited traits. There’s considerable research currently underway that attempts to make a connection between genes and behavior. “Great Debates” regularly discusses whether hereditary or environment is the dominant factor in sexual preference, IQ, sucess and other things.

What happens if someone can definitely determine that a gene (or combination of genes) is responsible for behavior? For the sake of this discussion (ok, monologue) science discovers that a combination of genes is present in males with a sexual preference for other males. The first thing that happens is that science “proves” that homosexuality is an act of nature. The second, is that the liberal left wing (no negative connotation) uses this fact to attempt to force the acceptance of homosexuality in our society.

But science keeps moving on. While the left and right are arguing about the meaning of DNA and sexual preference, science discovers another set of markers that indicate a tendency toward pedophilia (and you thought that I’d completely lost the OP). Argument can certainly be made that if homosexuality must be accepted because DNA proves it to be “natural”, similar argument can be used to argue that pedophilia is “natural”.

I certainly don’t want to see anyone making that legal argument, particularly if the Supreme Court takes a turn toward the left.

But I digress. Further research indicates that DNA markers also signal other forms of violence, anti-social behavior, sadism, masochism, and other mental states contrary to a peaceful society. Now we can no longer punish murderers because their DNA “makes” them that way.

Perhaps as science better understands DNA and how it affects behavior we can better tailor punishment to fit the crime. After all, we now know that people with type AB blood make healthy vegetarians and those with type O fare best with regular meat protein. I don’t see why science can’t someday determine the most effective punishment to encourage a behavioral change based on DNA.
I told you I felt a “memory dump” coming on. :wink:

34

Truth is that double Y chromosone thing got debunked. Richard Speck tried it and he didn’t even have an extra! Believe they discovered that there were just as many men with the extra that didn’t commit crimes, something like that.

The general understanding is that nurture in relation to criminal behavior plays a much more vital role than nature. Barring some new study that proves the opposite. Besides even the “bad home life” and “Twinkie” defense rarely holds water in a court of law. It’s true that pedophilia was removed from the diagnostic manual about the same time that homosexuality was, sometime around the 70s. But I am hoping that it will never be accepted as normal acceptable behavior for adults to victimize children in a modern society.

Why don’t you read my link. It might not suprise you to find out that pedophilia and child abuse are a lot more “normal” than we in modern Western society have been trained to believe.

Needs2know

35

Well, I shudder for all those 13 year olds getting sent to adult prison with these guys. Can we be sure he was on the recieving end?

36

Geez, I’d forgotten that this ** was ** the pit, folks were bein’ so civilized.

First of all, I agree there are many folks who absolutely need to be in prison, some for the rest of their natural lives, both as consequences of their actions and for the protection of the rest of us.

And, there’s others who seem to learn quickly to make good decisions. Where the lines get drawn is where the debate comes in.
If your intent is to keep 'em locked up for the rest of their lives, then, I think the focus needs to be on management tools for their behavior (for the safety of the guards and other inmates).

If, however, the assumption is that they’ll be free at some point, you certainly don’t want to give them extra reasons to be pissed at the world, authority figures, society as a whole. Plus, I’m of the mind that to treat people, even prisoners, in less than humane ways, diminishes us all (who said that thing about the best way to judge a society is to see how they treat their prisoners?)

One thing I think is productive: GED classes. I saw too many people who’d spent 3 years in prison and STILL couldn’t spell their home town.

Vocational stuff is also good. Many of the prison “jobs” as it were, are part of the process of keeping the prison running and keeping the costs down. For example, the food services and janitorial services are almost totally performed by the inmates (they get “paid” some nominal fee like a dollar a day). This serves several functions: 1, keeping costs down, 2, keeping control of the inmates (some prison jobs are seen as rewards), and at times 3 teaching a viable trade for their release.

One thing I’ve noticed I could almost always tell some one who’d done a 3 year or more stretch. their readjustment was almost always very difficult. They’ve spent that amount of time cooped up with folks the same sex and roughly the same age. They’d react if they heard some one jogging behind them.

anyhow. I never once heard ANYONE say, upon their release “you know, that wasn’t so bad…” the reasons folks end up going back are similar to the reasons they go in in the first place: substance abuse (accounted for roughly 70% of the folks I met up with), some just had a momentary lapse of either judgement or temper, and a small percent were, for want of a better word, rotten.

As far as the genetics stuff - Nature vs. Nurture, now there’s a debate. I think it IS clear that if we could fix the “Nurture” part, we’d be better off. Frankly I think we’re currently feeling the consequences of the war on drugs- folks going to prison for long periods of time, leaving their kids to be raised by the tired grandmas and grandpas.

I guess I wanted to assure folks that prisons indeed were punative, just by their nature. Caning, corporal punishment? hell, I think my son said it best “dad’s punishments (spanking) are over in a flash. your’s (removing priveleges, confiscating favorite toys, being grounded etc.) made me THINK”

talking to the people who’ve done time, trust me, the physical pains, discomforts, inconveniences etc. are not what they remember with sadness - it’s the being away from their families during important events (“I missed my mom’s funeral…”) that impacts them.

I don’t have the solutions.

37

“The war on drugs”.

Now there’s something that gets me fired up every time I hear about it.

I endorse breaking up the drug cartels. I support capital punishment for the neighborhood drug dealer. I’ll even go along with long prison stays for people foolish enough to try and smuggle the stuff through the Miami airport.

But why on earth do we jail people for using drugs?

I mean snorting coke is a pretty stupid thing to do. So is taking a screw driver and plunging it through the back of one’s hand. But “recreational” drugs are stupid AND illegal and will make you a guest of the warden. The same kind of stupidity and physical damage that comes from a screw driver will get you first to the emergency room, and then to the evaluation ward.

It just don’t make sense…