I have to agree with you here, if she has plenty of other problems it seems by rigidly insisting on dressing in a certain way that is only likely to reduce her pool of potential suitors further may not be the best choice. I get that she really doesn’t want to dress any other way, but blessed are the people who never have to do things they really don’t want to do to achieve the outcomes they want.
Of course the only person who really has to face the consequences of that choice are her, so I feel more that I have slightly less sympathy than I would have otherwise. Maybe I just don’t understand though.
All of that said though there are almost certainly people out there who will look past these things and for some the gender queer thing will even by an attraction. It seems to me moving to somewhere like New York (or some other place where there are plenty of open-minded people), whilst it shouldn’t be seen as a magic wand to cure all problems and may come with its own risks, could open up vistas to her that would never open otherwise. I get the feeling she and those around her view her situation with a certain rigidity that she may find is not so justified if the situation where to change somewhat.
I will see if she can come stay with me for awhile, it depends on if her voc rehab councilor is going to be doing anything in the next three weeks with her. They are still putting feelers out to colleges.
The cloths she would wear on a date would be nice and fancy, but men’s clothing. She recently told me that wearing girls clothes to her feel “wrong”. It’s not like wearing something that’s irritating/uncomfortable, more like telling a football player to wear a tutu to a big game. She is male in everything but the physical “parts”.
I have something similar, except I’m a male who feels like I should have been born a female. I luckily was not born with her challenges and was able to find a person who clicked with me. But, I am gay and she is straight and that is adding a new dimension to the problem.
I think Astro is simply pointing out that personal preferences often clash with other people’s preferences, and sometimes you have to compromise.
If a man loved wearing turtleneck sweaters, for instance, but lived in a society where women absolutely hated turtleneck sweaters, then he’ll probably have to compromise or be unpopular.
Sorry but I have a real problem with the idea that men’s clothes make you a man to the point where any variantion from the most lumpen, shapeless clothing is an assault on said masculinity. Men wear tailored shirts. Men wear pants that fit. Refusing to wear a tailored oxford shirt (something virtually any man would agree to do) is not a symbol of asserting your masculinity. It’s a symbol of being incredibly mentally rigid. If your sexuality is such that you can only date a person with glasses, that’s not a preference, that’s a fetish.
People who are incredibly mentally rigid – even those who are not genderqueer and limited in any number ways that make them functionally childlike – have a hard time making and keeping friends. Add up the other issues and she needs an incredible amount of support to obtain relationships which are not exploitative. Her constellation of issues + desperation for physical contact could lead her down many a dark road.
She does not only wear t-shirts and jeans. She has a nice selection of polos and button down shirts. She also has some good khaki pants. She is not a slob who doesn’t care about her looks.
I’m quite near sighted and I need glasses to get by in driving etc. You are raising clothing preferences to the status of absolute physical necessities required to perform on a competent human level. If she is that absolute and rigid about her clothing and representation requirements she is boxing herself into a nearly impossible situation. Having said this if I had to take my glasses off in meeting and greeting to make good impression with desired female I would do so until I could determine if there was potential there.
Beyond this the real world fact of the matter for most people is that once even the girliest women are out of the workplace or socializing and back at home they are quite often into comfy jeans and sweats and their favorite pair of chucks. A willing woman’s rear end in jeans or sweats is no less alluring to most heterosexual men than if it was in a ball gown or little back dress. Once she snags a man and entrances him with her wiles she can pretty much wear whatever she damn well pleases and he’s not going to bellyache.
If she’s not willing to play the game even for a little bit to get the motor started then being that stubborn and rigid is she really the kind of person anybody is going to want to date? Inflexible people are no fun to be with. I speak from experience.
I don’t think anyone including me is saying there is anything wrong with your niece and how she feels or that she needs to change, but the above is going to be a deal breaker for pretty much all hetero guys except one in a million, and even in NYC it would be difficult to find him. As you say she is male in everything but the parts, pretty much the opposite of what hetero guys are in the market for.
I’d tell your niece to not share her diagnoses with anyone in early dating either unless she has to, most people won’t know what they are and people can have incorrect ideas in their head of disabilities.
EDIT:I don’t remember if you mentioned it but does your niece have a “male” haircut?
She won’t tell anyone until a situation occurs where it needs to come out (why she can’t drive, why she can’t count out change, etc).
Her haircut is best described as “androgynous”. Medium length that would look good on both genders.
I’ve known an awful lot of women who (when I see them, anyway - they might dress differently for a wedding or party, but I wouldn’t know) dress exclusively in T-shirts, jeans, polos and khakis. And either sneakers or boots. Some of them have really short haircuts, don’t wear jewelry or make-up, etc. But no one would ever describe them as “dressing like a male”. Not particularly feminine, maybe. They might be described as a middle-aged , married woman who is satisfied with not looking like a slob and doesn’t feel a need to put extra effort into looking attractive. But they would not be described as “dressing as a male”.
I'm wondering what it is about your niece that takes her from "not particularly feminine" to "dressing like a male". Do the jeans/khakis she buys in the men's section fit her properly? Some women have a hip/waist ratio that allows men's sizes to fit properly and others don't - if I were to try to wear men's jeans, the ones that fit over my hips would be too loose around my waist. I have been racking my brain to think of any article of clothing my husband owns or even has ever worn that I couldn't find in a female size and I can only think of three - tuxedo, ties and underwear with a fly-front. Everything else - T shirts, jeans, button-down shirts, sweats, suits with pants rather than skirts - can also be found in female sizes.
That’s kind of what I was wondering re dress as well. Women have a HUGE range of what they can wear and be seen as sexy and alluring. The tweaks required to go from a man’s outfit of jeans, button down shirt and loafers to an only slightly modified female version of the exact same assemblage are almost infinitesimal. In this case jeans with a different hip waist ratio, an oxford button down with in a pastel color with more rounded collar points, and more or less identical loafers. A woman could easily get interest in an outfit like this and not be looked at sideways.
If making these tiny presentation shifts for an initial meeting or socializing event is a deal breaker I think she may need to re-asses her priorities.
She hates the way women’s clothes fit (the tightness mainly) and she also has very broad shoulders. She identifies as male and so dresses that way. I talked to some knowledgeable about genderqueer issues and she says it would be best if she finds a man identifying as female.
One of the things(among many) that attracted me to my wife was her rejection and lack of overly feminine traits and girly stuff. She doesn’t wear makeup, I laughed in a good way when at our wedding some of her female relatives and friends insisted on putting makeup on her and she told me she felt like a clown(I find she doesn’t need makeup). She also doesn’t have long nails or paint her nails.
She was into typically male pursuits like computers and electronics, home repair and interest in mechanical stuff. She didn’t do the(to me annoying) female body language stuff, like fawning over a guy. But she still identifies as female, she just thinks a strict social definition of female or feminine is restricting and stupid.
She wears pants and shirts and long skirts and regular non-girly shoes and boots.
I always found women obsessed with appearing overly stereotypical feminine, even down to their interests and pursuits annoying and I know a lot of guys also do. But exclusively wearing only men’s clothes and identifying as male internally and mentally would be a turn off.
It sounds like it has less to do with her choice of clothing, and more about the fact that she identifies as a male (or, perhaps I should say HE identifies as a male). In that case, she could put on a skirt and high heels, and if she has male mannerisms and behavior, the skirt and heels won’t “sell” the act. It would just increase her discomfort and make the person on the receiving end more confused about who she really is.
This may be a long shot, but it jumped into my mind so I’ll put it out there. A lot of high functioning people on the autism spectrum have difficulty with social interactions, making friends, and have some gaps in their functional abilities (such as being unable to drive, make change, etc.). They may have odd mannerisms that are offputting to neurotypicals, and they may perseverate on interests that many of us would find very unusual.
Even though your niece isn’t diagnosed on the autism spectrum, she might find common ground with those who are. I know Wrongplanet.com has a forum for adults with autism who are interested in dating and relationships, and have regular threads about how to manage their social skills deficits and capitalize on their strengths. She might try looking at some of those sites to find people with similar challenges and get some ideas for how to increase her friendships and find potential dating partners.
I agree with others; its a long shot. But if she can’t realistically leave home at this point, having online interactions and working on her skills can move her in the right direction. Who knows? She might find somebody that clicks with her.
I want to say from the beginning that there is nothing wrong with your niece- she is who she is- but from your description it would be difficult for her to find a suitable man even in a place like NYC. It’s not something easy like that she doesn’t realize her clothing could fit her better- she likes the way her clothing fits. That genderqueer dating website or one like it is probably her best bet- but she still may not be successful.
What she’s looking for is a man who is interested in someone who is a male except for the genitals - and that cuts out probably 99% of the male population. And then, out of that 1% she has to find one that she is attracted to and who is attracted to her - because even if she finds a man who is interested in someone who is male except for the parts, that doesn’t mean he’ll be interested in her or she in him. Her gender identity is not the sum total of her existence any more than it is for anyone else- it’s not as though every heterosexual man is attracted to every heterosexual woman and vice-versa. It’s just that most gay and straight people have a bigger pool than she does.
Dating is a numbers game, and she’s got a very limited pool of potential mates to choose from. As soon as you stray away from gender-norms, you’ve got a smaller dating pool. Disability, especially with a greatly reduced earning potential, will reduce the size of your dating pool. An attraction to a combined set of characteristics that are under-represented in the general population (straight, effeminate man) will reduce the dating pool. Remote rural location, limited transportation, smaller dating pool. If you visualise these groups of people in a Venn diagram, that’s got to be a very, very reduced dating pool in the centre. It is not diminishing your niece’s worth or value as a person to acknowledge that there are very few people out there who tick all the boxes. I don’t know what advice to give except to say that if there is a way to reduce the impact of any of these factors, then do it. It can only help her chances.
Going to college and getting a better job in an area with public transportation will probably help. The voc rehab counseler thinks she can get a degree, she just needs to find a way around the math on the entrance exam.
Her biggest fear is never finding someone, besides her family, who accepts her.