Unfortunately, the old saw about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into holds true. Never underestimate a True Believer’s ability to rationalize their way back to a conclusion even when all of its factual underpinnings have been reduced to dust.
My guess is that the response would look a bit like “They knew they could get away with manipulating America into a war with Iraq anyways, and they wanted to stir up anger at Muslims in general. Saudi Arabia, being the location of Mecca and one of the most prominent and influential Muslim nations on the planet, was chosen.”
They were able to engineer an extremely complex plan in secret under everybody’s nose but couldn’t plant a few miserable WMD in Iraq in the turmoil of war.
“They knew that once the war began they wouldn’t actually have to find WMD’s and most people wouldn’t want to change horses in the middle anyways. Also, they knew that a sufficient number of people really would believe that we’d found WMD’s, even though we hadn’t.”
They flew 2 planes into the Twin Towers. They had a third headed to Washington which ended up going down in PA, but then, instead of simply flying a fourth plane into the Pentagon, they shot a missile instead.
Think about the logistics and loose ends involved in shooting a missile into the Pentagon. They had already found ways to deal with the logistics of taking control of airliners, so why complicate things (thereby increasing the chance of exposure) by using a completely different method to attack the Pentagon?
Hell, if there were Mossad agents dancing in the street after 9/11, that’s about the strongest argument *against *Mossad being involved in the attack that I can think of. I mean, what kind of amateur hour bullshit are we talking about, where secret agents pull off a devastating attack against their closest ally in the world, and then go out and dance in the fucking streets of the country they just attacked?
Remember that one of the hallmarks of most Conspiracy Theories is that the CT’ers posit they were pulled off by Genius Fools.
The Mossad is so crafty that they can organize the largest terrorist attack on American soil in all history, can cover their tracks so well that not only do we not learn that they did it, but there’s massive evidence that Al Quaeda did, control the US government so thoroughly that even if they do find out a link that the US just mumbles and bows its head in shame before letting them go on about their business… but the vaunted superspy agents of the Mossad also went out in public, during the attacks, and danced/filmed while on top of a big ol’ van. Logical consistency is not a barrier to someone who’s decided to embrace a CT.
BTW, how was it discovered that they were Mossad agents? Did some one ask them if they were and they said, “Well, we’re not Mossad agents, that’s for sure. If anything, we are just ordinary Israeli citizens with no particular interest in politics.”?
My wife doesn’t really have a coherent point (and actually, she was drunk the other night). I am pretty sure she is Just Asking Questions in response to some links that her friend sent her. I like the idea of drilling down on a single point, but the other night it was hard to get her to stick to any one point.
I am still kicking myself for blowing up when she tried to put Alex Jones’s app on my iPhone and wouldn’t give it back.
If you check the link that I provided for newcomer (the same one I provided about a year ago when he engaged in the same JAQ’ing), it was not the official position of the FBI that they were agents of the Mossad. Rather, two unnamed, “law enforcement officials”, of undetermined rank and association with the investigation, told a reporter for The Forward. Equally unofficial was the judgement of the gathered intelligence agencies that even if the men had been Israeli spies, that they had absolutely no connection with 9/11 due to having no foreknowledge of it.
I suppose, if the witnesses claims of them laughing/high fiving are true (and there’s reason to doubt that there was a totally accurate description from at least one witness, who claimed that they were speaking Arabic), then we can say that they were behaving like assholes at the time. Not much to build a Conspiracy Theory on, but that’s what Just Asking Questions is for, after all.
Eh… another hallmark of the Type 2 Truther is that they can engage in a Gish Gallop with the best of 'em. Point out that it makes no sense that there would be four hijacked planes, three of which were accounted for, and then they’d just hide the fourth, and the bodies, and use a cruise missile over populated territory for God only knows what reason. As if, hitting the Pentagon with a plane full of innocent civilians wouldn’t be enough of a casus belli, so they had to hide the plane and then use a missile. Just because. They’ll switch to talking about molten steel. Not 100% of the time, just often enough to be really, really annoying.
Actually, she switched to talking about how Mr. Jones “predicted” that the price of gold would go through the roof and that the country’s credit rating would be downgraded. I countered that he always says that shit and that even a broken clock is right twice a day, but she was unpersuaded. She just told me that she was skeptical of his claims but then she did a little investigating…
Like I said, she was drunk. I am just impressed that she didn’t get pissed at me.
Hrm… well, not as bad as it can be then. She may just be a late-blooming Type 1, but any reliance at all on Alex “The Illuminati Are Out To Get Me!” Jones is a red flag. But hey, maybe it was just drunken stupidity. If I were you, I’d avoid bringing it up in the future and change the subject if it does come up.
This is pretty much true though. The government could make some stuff up (or be mistaken) and throw you in a Navy brig and you wouldn’t be able to do much. You might get out in a couple years, eventually. If they send you to a CIA blacksite you’ll have some good stories to tell at least.
Maybe that could help. Show her stuff about ACTUAL conspiracies that have been uncovered, and why they can’t be kept under wraps for too long. Usually what happens, at best for the planners, is that all the evidence comes out (sometimes years after the fact, but eventually it does) and it’s known, but no one can do anything about it because the system is corrupt.
I mean, if you were uninformed then a summary of COINTELPRO would sound like a crazy hippie CT. But it actually happened and we know about it because Congress investigated and found the documents (well, originally it was stolen from a field office, but hey). If something as huge as WTC being a false flag operation happened there’d be some evidence by now. We know all sorts of crazy stuff about the government because of leaks. The Iraq conspiracy was uncovered as it happened, before boots were even on the ground. It’s been 11 years and there’s not even a disgruntled agent with a book talking about the WTC? These guys get depressed killing people on the other side of the planet, you’d think a couple of them would have big problems killing their fellow countrymen.
People who believe in conspiracies usually use them to blame what is universally deplored on people they more personally dislike. Liberals who believe a conspiracy killed John Kennedy usually blame the CIA, or another left wing hate target. They do not blame the KGB, although KGB agents may have wanted revenge for efforts to kill Fidel Castro.
I have difficulty believing in conspiracies involving large numbers of people and lasting for long periods of time. Someone will leak information to the press, have a death bed confession, get drunk and brag to a girl friend, etc.
I do not like George W. Bush. I blame him for the mess the economy is in. I think he may have lied about weapons of mass destruction. Nevertheless, I do not think he is evil enough to have planned 9/11. I also do not think he is intelligent enough to have carried it out.
There are plenty of journalists who grew up reading about how Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein exposed Watergate. They would love to have exposed President Bush’s complicity in 9/11. The fact that they did not tells me that there is nothing there.
I have a coworker that I relate to really well, and was floored to discover is one of those conspiracy avid anti-American Canadians you describe. There was a space shuttle up at the time and I asked him if he thought that was faked too (no). I didnt keep a poker face but you can bet I am never bringing that kind of stuff up again. I rather just not know the crazy shit someone I otherwise respect believes in.
I am very critical of American politics, but I really am ashamed of all the mindless anti USA crap that comes out of the mouths of so many Canadians (even the right wingers). It is short man syndrome on a national scale.
What looks like a conspiracy to you another may see as a regular day at work.
How do you explain that it took year 2005 to figure out that USS Maddox attack was a hoax? There was a large number of people involved even though I’m sure almost 99% of them had no clue what are they part to, there were leaks, there were theories but the World took the turn and it never looked back.
I’m very interested to hear your explanation of how come we had to wait 40 years instead of what you suggest…
I think that’s pretty much it. Hell, I’ve been called a traitor to the United States on this very message board for pointing out that we tortured dozens of people to death during our invasion and occupation of Iraq. But this… it’s something else. I sat in the ‘teachers lounge’ area at work today while my coworkers were watching YouTube videos describing how the moon landing never took place. One of them said “Oh, look at that, the picture was edited!”. I pointed out that they couldn’t actually edit photos that way at that time, but he brushed it off (I was stupid, I need to learn to keep my big mouth shut when they’re going all conspiracy).
Later they found some video of a Japanese probe on the moon that was supposed to verify whether or not the US had been there and (Gasp!!!) the YouTube video of the Japanese probe’s footage didn’t show anything.
I’m tempted to make up an anti-US conspiracy theory and see if I can get them to believe it.
