My Worthless, Uninformed Take On The Trump Win.

The BBQ Pit
21

Snowboarder Bo: Well, if the help they want is jobs, Jobs, JOBS!, Obama’s infrastructure revamp plan was not a bad start. It ain’t a bunch of turnips either- roads and bridges & etc. are devolving into crap all over the place, just travel around a little and see for yourself. But- obstructionism. Are these the kinds of jobs desperate people really want though? Dunno.

I see what you are saying about Trump being perceived as a different kind of BMG. I hope that is the case, but I think these poor folks are in for a rude awakening on that point. I hope I am wrong. Bigly.

The GOP seems to be anathema to the white working class’ economic interests, doesn’t it seem that way to you? But they get roped in by social issues which never get imposed ISTM. Not sure what to do about that. How are you going to get urban people to turn against brown people or gay people? How are you going to get urbanites on board with discriminating against Muslims? Empathy for cultural differences is one thing- I suppose more talk, more messaging, more Free Speech on these issues could help everyone involved. More rural internet access could put everyone more in touch with everyone else. Teaching the next generation to be less judgmental and reactionary could help (I actually think they are already like that. When the Jim Crow pre-Boomers die off, there will be if not less conflict, different conflict).

I don’t like your war analogy. I don’t want to be at war with rural people, poor people, ignorant people, the down and out and the needy. I actually want to get rich and be a philanthropist for the homeless. But if it is food-sharing and inter-marriage that is required, I will become a lot more amenable to all kinds of things if I can be introduced to enough Amazon blondes. I am not impossible to work with!

But seriously, I am not sure I personally am the kind of Democrat that would be considered the “national average”. There is the New York Sensibility which doesn’t really understand the Rural Sensibility, and vice versa- I get that, but I am kind of both or neither depending on how you slice it. Get New Yorkers and Californians in a dialog with Arkansans and Alabamans and so on and I bet we move in the kind of direction you are describing.

22

This is remarkably condescending. you don’t even feel the need to ask, you already know what people want. Is that attitude going to win people to your side?

Remember what your goal is!

This is how you’re going to present things to people who dislike your side in order to win them over? :dubious:

No one wants to hear the real answer: get an education, move someplace that’s not a shithole, and get some other job. Hillary was a bit more polite but that was basically her answer. Oh, and here are some social programs while you’re unemployed. Obviously it didn’t resonate.
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More condescension. You don’t even need to ask people what they want, you’ve already moved on to what they need.

Do you not see how that will alienate people?

You just called them stupid and gullible. Is that going to win people over, do you think?

Okay, I know that you weren’t talking to Trump supporters there, and I’m gonna guess that your overall outlook right now is somewhat more cynical than usual, but listen to yourself and ask if you’d want to listen to an opponent who talks about you and your issues the way you just talked about them and their issues?

You’re repeatedly dismissive and condescending, alternating instructing and looking down your nose. That won’t win hearts and minds, it won’t win votes and it won’t win elections. Stop thinking adversarily and start thinking about you’d make friends. Listen. Understand. Empathize.

Robert McNamara, for instance, was a son of a bitch, but even he eventually learned the importance of this.

23

I dunno, but I agree that they are jobs we need done.

I can’t remember which Senator or Rep said it, but back before the Gulf War (1990) someone said something like “The American people are not ready to go to war; we need time to prepare them.” And sure enough, they spent the next three months whipping the American public into a frenzy so that when we started official military operations in January, the country was behind it.

Remember when we really got our space program going? Something that very few people really gave a shit about, but President Kennedy made some great speeches and soon enough the American people were raring to go to space.

I don’t recall that same type of propaganda campaign for re-building our infrastructure.

Oh, you’re not wrong. Trump’s a con artist; he almost never delivers what he promised to everyone he promised something to. At first, the public will accept that it’s not his fault, the Democrats are to blame, etc. Eventually those excuses prolly will not cut it, but for the first year or so Trump has a free pass.

Aye. People don’t care because the Democrats appear to be anathema to working class interests these days. I’m a proud union member, and even I think the Democratic Party’s policies have very little to offer me and my Brothers and Sisters. They basically offer us a “unions can still be here” position, while the GOP is “unions out!”, but again, people are so fed up with nothing working for them that Trump, who we all know isn’t a real GOP-er, prolly seems like a neutral party to his supporters. They’re wrong, but they already feel that things aren’t working for them so “fuck it”.

The Culture Wars are almost ended; Bill O’Reilly was a shitty culture warrior and his side is losing. I agree that exposure is the key to cutting across culture divides mainly erected out of ignorance and/or fear.

I don’t want to be at war with anyone, and I only offered it as an illustration of my opinion that conflicts are only truly ended when we can get the Other to make himself into One Of Us by his own volition. Exporting culture is the surest way to do that, and exchanging culture can help establish bonds that can speed up that process.

Well, I think that’s the challenge that the Democratic Party finds itself with: Listen to the people who don’t like you, understand their needs (and worries and hopes, etc.) and empathize with them.

They want to raise families, have dogs and cats, drive jet skis on the lake, go skiing, see that summer blockbuster movie, jump on the trampoline in the backyard, see their kids play baseball, etc. Find commonality with them; don’t ask them to find commonality with you. The Democratic Party is the one who should be doing all the reaching out here for the next few years, IMO.

24

The problem is that I genuinely don’t see a way out of it. I don’t blame them for wanting the good old days. Who wouldn’t? I didn’t say they were racists or anything; their fathers did have it better and it must suck to see things go so downhill.

I’m obviously being a bit more “brutally honest” here than a real politician would be. I’m not running for office. But ultimately, someone has to confront the reality that coal is dead, and that US manufacturing isn’t going back to its glory days.

So the choices are:

  1. Propose solutions for the inevitable, which is mostly going to be various social and education programs. Hillary also proposed green energy investment to replace coal jobs, though that’s a bit silly since coal areas aren’t exactly optimal for solar or wind.
  2. Pretend that the problem has a magic-wand fix of eliminating regulations and reworking trade deals.

How can 1 possibly compete with 2? 2 is easily compressed into a pleasant soundbyte and allows them to imagine that things will go back to the good old days (Make America Great Again is the slogan). 1 doesn’t sound so hot–unemployment, retraining, moving, and no real guarantee of a new job.

They’re in a pile of shit and nothing can change that, just maybe waft away the worst of the stench. Maybe they know that already and just voted Trump as a final fuck you. All the empathy in the world can’t change reality.

25

I think they like me just fine. One example anyway- my last gf lives in Arkansas- she’s a rural gun-owning conservative Christian. OTOH, she is a very bright self-made woman who Does Not support Trump. She’s 25% Native American though, so her sense of White Identity just isn’t the same as some people’s. She’s different in a lot of ways.

It can be done, I’ve done it myself. These people aren’t all the same, they aren’t all dumb or poor or helpless. I dunno- Obama won handily, twice. Maybe we all just need to shrug, realize that some people are suckers who will vote against their own interests, and just keep an eye out for more appealing candidates as demographic trends and the damage they’ve done to themselves by voting in Trump & Co play out. Wait 18 months and see if they are still enthralled by the moronic illusion they swallowed hook, line and sinker. Meanwhile, I live in a beautiful part of Blue State America- my life doesn’t suck at all, and it probably won’t (until I want to collect Social Security at least). Live well and be an example.

26

Explain the rise of the alt-right and white supremacy groups during the campaign? Take out the words “black” and “white” in my post and I doubt it would have elicited the same response from you. Me adding race to the statement is just my observation of the rise of anti-immigration, anti-globalization, anti-Muslim, and anti-black sentiments over the past 12-16 months, plus things I’ve heard from people in my own small, rural hometown over the past couple years, as well as union halls I’ve been in. I’m sorry if you found my post sneering, because it wasn’t meant to be. But there was definitely a desire from many blue collar, rural people I’ve encountered to return to a more “demographically traditional” White House (and that’s putting it nicely in many cases).

27

I’m really thinking more rant. Off to The Pit.

28

Thanks. I thought I was the only one who felt this way.

My take, since no one asked.

We lost because we thought we deserved to win, and that was all that mattered; we were right, and the other side was wrong. If you don’t agree with us, then we don’t need you. We’re becoming like the GOP, and it needs to stop.

We look at the rural areas and we are, at best, well meaning but condescending, and at worst outwardly hostile assholes. Rural whites have been left behind, and while some of the things that they choose to blame for that are wrong, some of the things they are saying are legitimate and we should fucking listen to them. We have sympathy for a kid growing up in the inner city with inferior schools, and we call the same kid in West Virginia a redneck. We should figure out what we can do to actually help them. By “them”, I mean both kids. They were wrong for thinking that Donald Trump is the answer to their problems, but they weren’t wrong for thinking that Hillary Clinton wasn’t the answer to their problems.

I’m even starting to see their point on the second amendment. Last night, I started panicking. What if Trump really fucks this thing up and I have to flee? With my family. With three small children. I have a place to flee to and to hole up. Getting there in case of an emergency wouldn’t be trivial. Staying there wouldn’t be trivial. I started realizing, that I’d probably want a weapon. Two weeks ago, I thought very differently about this. Maybe the difference between me and the “gun nuts” is just that they overemphasize the likelihood of this event. Or maybe I under emphasize it, and it took a Donald Trump presidency to make me consider it.

I’m not saying that I think they are right that every effort at gun control is “gun grabbing”, but maybe we shouldn’t paint them all as “gun nuts” either. I’m not saying that their conspiracy theories are correct, but the vast majority of gun owners are good people. If there was a candidate that could sit down and had the trust of the gun owners, he or she could convince them that they just want gun control laws that maintain law and order without fear that they are trying to take away all the guns.

Similarly, some of their complaints about PC culture are silly, but not all of them. Much of their fears about violence in the Islamic world is misinterpreted, but not all of it.

I’m a scientist, and as unreligious as they come. But, maybe I could be less of a dick about it.

I’m not saying we have to agree with everything they say, especially at the fringes. But if we had a candidate that could actually openly and honestly talk to a person who says “All Lives Matter” without us jumping down their throat that this is automatically the marker that the dude is a racist, we could make some headway into our own populist candidate with wide appeal. If we could have a candidate that said, “Yeah, I get that Islam currently has an issue with violence, but the Somali guy down the street is just trying to have the American dream like you. And the Islamic world, much like the rural white world is being left behind too,” I think they would respond to that message. If we could have a candidate that would stop telling that kid from Appalachia how privileged he should feel, and acknowledge that, yeah, he’s white but he’s having a tough go of it too. Being white comes with privileges, unfortunately, but that kid just hears us calling him “privileged” and that sounds condescending as hell.

I hope we widen our tent, and not just to win elections, but to win hearts. We have to build trust by being genuine, not sounding genuine. Trump “tells it like it is” is the common refrain. This is obvious bullshit, but at least he pretended that he thinks they matter.

I’m glad this is anonymous, because nobody who knows me in real life could imagine me feeling this way, or being this serious about anything. I’ve cried numerous times in the past two days, and I’ve never cried before in my life other than the ending of “Rudy”. And if you don’t cry at the end of Rudy, well, then you really are in a basket of deplorables!

29

Perhaps you should form the opinions based on the numbers:
It seems from reading this article, It Appears As Though Hillary Clinton Was Ultimately Done In By Low Democratic Voter Turnout, which is showing the American voting data that you have the confirmation it was indeed the collapse in the enthusiasm and the support of Mrs Clinton’s own party and not an explosion of the support to Trump

30

Maybe our candidate should appeal to more than just Democratic voters.

31

Not a lot to disagree with in the rest of your post. But -

The election of Trump means the Culture Wars are not over. They are about to be re-fought hotter than ever. Abortion, gay marriage, gun control, immigration - all the cultural issues that send people’s blood pressure on both sides thru the roof. Because abortion and gay marriage and gun control in particular were decided by the Supreme Court, and guess who is going to nominate at least one, possibly two, Justices to the Court? And guess who’s party controls the House and Senate? And there ain’t no filibuster on Supreme Court nominees, and there ain’t gonna be none.

Sure, maybe Trump was lying, and maybe three Republicans and no Democrats will break ranks and vote against whoever is nominated. But maybe not.

Regards,
Shodan

32

The bolded portion is incorrect - the actions in 2013 removed the filibuster for all federal judge nominees except Supreme Court Justices. cite. Sure, the republicans could amend the rules again, but all the same arguments they used against the change 3 years ago still apply, even more strongly.

33

My bad - I misremembered. Thanks for the correction.

Regards,
Shodan

34

I think it’s reasonable to assume that Republicans are going to change this rule.

35

Back in 2008, what did Obama promise? “Hope”. “Change”.

In 2016, Trump promised, “I’ll make America great again.” What slogan did Clinton have to match that, to bring out her own supporters?

36

We tried, by attempting to elect Hillary Clinton. They rejected that offer and now get nothing. I hope they enjoy it.

37

I hope they realize it, and we give them a better alternative next time.

38

I don’t know that he can’t. Lower corporate taxes, repatriate foreign held corporate assets, gut social programs, build huge deficits, stifle imports…

You might bring back considerable manufacturing.

That is a costly recipe though.

39

It might help if they are not a shithook, also.

40

Why? What’s the point? Is listening, understanding, and empathising going to make those coal jobs come back? If, after listening, understanding, and empathising, these disaffected Trumpkins still refuse to accept these basic home truths, what are we supposed to do? Listen, understand, and empathise some more? When do we stop doing that? How many years will we need to listen, understand, and empathise before they’re ready to accept the basic facts the rest of us have known all along?

Old school manufacturing and coal are dead. Deporting 11 million illegal immigrants is impossible. You can’t just nuke ISIS, and Mexico isn’t paying for anybody else’s wall.

These people need to wise up, and there are only two ways that’s going the happen. The first is with education, and with the aid of social programs to help them retrain in financially viable fields. The second is tough love.

They’ve already voted against option 1.