Except maybe what might be going on which Amy ignored is they don’t care if people see them naked which is very different than trying to get people to see them naked or trying to offend their puritanical inhibitions. I have friend that walk around their property naked all the time in good weather and if the neighbors see then meh. But they are not going out of their way to be seen.
Hey! I have an honest question for the women on this board. Specifically with this part of Amy’s advice
However, are you perhaps reveling in the prospect of alarming your neighbors? Just a little bit? And yes – of course – despite what you claim, you do seem to be planning to “exhibit” yourselves. It would be easy for you to drape a towel around yourselves for that 20-foot journey from your house to the hot tub (don’t you need a towel, anyway?).
Suppose you wear skirts and dresses that come to your knees but coworkers are appalled that you show so much leg given their idea of the social norms (like they’re moral conservatives or of a religion that does not accept women showing skin or “My mother would never show leg.”, etc.) What would your reaction be if, when asking someone for advice they said
- I bet your trying to upset them. Just a little.
- Despite you saying you’re just dressing to be comfortable, you do it intentionally to show your legs to them.
- Just wear a longer skirt, dress or slacks that cover your legs completely.
Moreover, would you feel it’s YOUR fault they look at your calves and get offended?
Lord, I was a teenager in the sixties, and you should have heard all the old biddies cawing about how short all our skirts were. I ignored them and dressed as I like.
As I said above, I’ve been in mixed groups – including strangers – where everyone was nude. Nothing sexual at all. Very relaxed and happy. No perving. Well, maybe a little in the tent later that night.
When I was about 10 I accidently wandered into a nude beach. There were naked men all over the place. I was a little embarrassed by it, but I was not traumatized, or harmed in any way. None of the men was threatening, sexually or otherwise. They were lying on the sand, or splashing in the ocean.
When my kids were about 10, we accidentally led them to the same beach. They were a little embarrassed. My husband told them not to stare, because it’s rude, but that they shouldn’t look away, either, because it’s educational. (Fwiw, what i learned at age 10 is that old people are a lot more attractive when their clothes hide their wrinkles and paunches. But i digress…)
I think it’s unfortunate that we consider the human body shameful or threatening. I think we would all grow up healthier if it were normal to glimpse our neighbors in the nude, doing normal, nonsexual things like mowing the lawn or lounging in a hot tub.
That being said, i don’t think that IS the norm i live in. If i wanted to hang out naked in my own hot tub, in my own backyard, i would erect a privacy fence around it. It might even be the law here. It’s certainly the public expectation. I suspect the same is true where the letter-writer lives.
We have a backyard hot tub, and yes, we use it nude. It makes no sense to deal with bathing suits when it’s just the two of us, and it’s a lot more comfortable without them. Also, swim suits tend to release soap into the water, which means you have to change it more often. And in winter, it’s much more comfortable to get out and into a robe without having a wet bathing suit clinging to you.
Our yard backs onto a stormwater lake, and probably a dozen houses can see into our backyard. So I installed curtains around the tub, and we definitely wear robes until we are inside the curtains. It’s just the neighborly thing to do. A gazebo with curtains is a fraction of the cost of a hot tub. In our case, the tub is under the deck, so I just installed curtain rods and curttains. About $150 and a couple of hours of time took care of all of it.
But also, I don’t want my wife winding up in some perv’s video collection, or have naked images of her posted on the internet. I’m not worried about me - no one wants pictures of me. But walking around the lake I have seen more than one telescope in the windows of our neighbors, and I get the sense that people-watching is pretty common. I’d rather bathe in privacy and not have to worry about who is watching and/or recording us.
Where did I say that “it should be restricted”? I think the couple should restrict themselves. They can put up a canopy, a hedge, a fence, or just wear a robe or towel and not have to be so concerned about their neighbors that they write newspaper columnists for advice.
My response was to k9bfriender’s listing three hypotheticals that had nothing to do with the original question and the line “I can play this game all day.” As to your hypothetical, since you think your naked body is private and don’t like my seeing it, either put up a fence or don’t walk around naked in your back yard. Do you think I’m the only person on the block who can see back there?
This needs considerably more context. For instance, are these coworkers’ social norms the dominant social norms of the local culture?
Because personally, I have lived in local cultures outside the US where women dressing in a way that exposed their calves was indeed routinely considered at the very least quite daring, if not outright inappropriate. And you can bet your fabric-clad ass that I did not wear any outfits that exposed my calves in those situations.
On the other hand, if these hypothetical coworkers are a cultural minority in a larger social environment where women with knee-length skirts are typically considered completely normal-looking and not immodest at all, I’d expect my coworkers to understand that, and not be “appalled” upon seeing a completely normal knee-length skirt.
Even so, if I had to be working closely with those coworkers for any significant time, I would consider it gracious behavior for me to bear in mind their particular modesty norms, and choose outfits that didn’t show my calves.
Again, are the modesty expectations of these coworkers in line with the standard social norms of the society we’re in, or is theirs a relatively unusual minority view?
Because, in the former case, I think the sample advice remarks you put forward are not at all unreasonable. In the latter case, I’d be less sympathetic to them.
Returning to the actual situation that you’re trying to draw an analogy with: Obviously, in at least the overwhelming majority of US society, being naked where nearby people can unintentionally see your exposed body is not in line with the dominant social norms of the culture. It’s almost universally considered inappropriate behavior.
Just sneering at the existence of that real-life social norm as “prudish” is no more effective or constructive than sneering at, say, the widespread real-life usage of the word “literally” to mean “figuratively” as “incorrect”. This is a recognized behavioral norm that currently exists in the real world, whether you personally like it or not.
I read the column came out, and what stood out was that people were objecting on behalf of the neighbors. Chances are the neighbors didn’t care in the first place.
But that’s not my question.
“I’m offended by your puritanical views of the human body and demanding that I conform to your expectations of behavior. And I’m especially offended by your voyeuristic intentions spying on me on my own property. Will you do it again, now knowing I’ll be offended?”
Answer yes or no, will you continue to comment on my nudism when I do nothing different? THAT is what I’m saying you are avoiding.
Obviously if we both continue to do the same thing over again, nothing will be resolved. Shall I hook up a PA system and play heavy metal rap from 7:00 a.m. to dusk, call the police and make an indecent exposure complaint, or have a ton of ripe cow manure delivered to my back yard for fertilizer?
Or perhaps we could work out a compromise as neighbors.
Ahhh … so there’s the rub. I don’t feel the need to change my behavior according to your arbitrary norms. But for some reason you expect me to. Why should you have that level of control of my actions just because you are offended? Assuming what I’m doing is legal and does not harm anyone. Are you willing to give up your pitbull because I’m offended (and a little scared) that you let a potential killing machine in your backyard untethered? Or is it the case that no you wouldn’t because you don’t feel I should be offended and that you shouldn’t have to give away family members based on what I’m feeling.
The first and last ones are non sequiturs. You can avoid seeing me naked or at worst its a glimpse and then you have the power to not look into my backyard. The music and smell are ones I cannot avoid no matter what I do and is not just a second or two of inconvenience or offense. So those are not analogous to what we are discussing.
The police report? Go ahead and when they say it’s legal the next time I see you I’ll say, “Ha ha.” And maybe I’ll file a complaint for your voyeurism and see where it goes if you want to play at that. Because that offends me (although strangely you keep doing it even though I say it offends me. Strange that)
First off, my yard is fenced and I would not have a dog in an unfenced yard, not even a dachsund.
Secondly, I have the right to be offended. It seems to me that even this Board has adopted the position over the years that members have the right to be offended. Moreover, I have not in any of my posts, said that anyone should not be allowed to be naked in their own back yards. What I have said is that people who choose to be naked in their back yard should be considerate of their neighbors who don’t want to see them.
And having just seen your last post let me ask, why is my “just a second or two of inconvenience or offense” okay, but your second or two of inconvenience or offense by wearing a towel until you get in the hot tub unacceptable?
Forget about the law or what’s ‘right’ for a second. The real issue is that these are your neighbors, who you may have as neighbors for years or decades. It is stupid to antagonize them over petty things like not wanting to wear a robe while you walk out to your pool. Maintaining good relationships with your neighbors is important. They can make your life hell if you don’t.
If you want to make a social or political stand, do it somewhere other than around the people you will have to live next to and get along with after your important social statement has been delivered.
No one has said you haven’t.
Because I am under no obligation to change my behavior just because you are offended. Again with you first point you avoid the hypothetical if you are willing to give up a dog that offends me. Based on this and your other replies, it seems to me that you expect others to change their behavior if you are offended, but you would not change yours if it offends others.
But at what point does it end? My neighbors wanted us to get rid of our dachshund because he would sit on the back of his couch and stare at them through his window when they were on their porch which could be seen over the fence from those angles. Their reasoning was he was intimidating them. So your saying I should have gotten rid of my dog to appease them?
Of course not. But it’s a good example of the kind of crap that happens when you don’t get along with your neighbors. In your case, it sounds like that ship has already sailed.
I had a friend once who bought a house that had a garage with a pad he shared with the neighbor’s house. The garages faced each other with a pad in between them. After fighting with her several times, he came home one day to find that a fence had been installed down the middle of the pad, such that he could no longer get his car into his garage (she didn’t have a car, so she didn’t care).
It turns out that the original homebuilders never bothered to get an easement protecting the pad, because their neighbors got along well with them at the time and they just agreed to the common use. So he didn’t have a legal leg to stand on.
The friend lost access to his own garage, and never got it back. Don’t piss off your neighbors.
I did not avoid your hypothetical. I would not keep a dog in an unfenced yard. Period. Full stop.
As for what you call obligations, as a member of a community I try to behave in a way which causes a minimum of disruption and offense to my neighbors, and I ask for the same level of respect from my neighbors.
Sorry your neighbors were such buttheads about your dog. Sounds like a bit of understanding on their part could have avoided a lot of unpleasantness.
The hypothetical includes a fenced yard
Or (and here is a wild idea) if you happen to glimpse a neighbour without clothes on walking to or from, or getting in or out of a hot tub and it offends you, stop looking in that direction for a few seconds. This isn’t “A Clockwork Orange”.
And why do you think those people are trying to make a social or political stand? They are on their own property and behaving in a completely benign and neutral way that cannot possibly continue to affect you unless you wish to allow it to.
Seems to me like those actually making a social or political stand in this situation are those seeking to stop someone doing a perfectly natural and legal thing due to their own personal level of offence and/or personal standards of behaviour.