Anecdotal, but… I once went to a beach with a few friends. We were at a fairly remote beach - there are some holiday houses at one end but we were at the far end. Everyone stripped and had a nude swim.
Then some guy, who literally would have needed binoculars or a telescope to tell we were naked from his house drove (illegally) down the 1.5km or so on the beach to tell us nudity was not allowed.
How were we harming him?
Forget about the fence. A dachshund can dig under it.
LOL. That’s completely normal dachshund behavior. They think they’re the emperors of all time and space.
I certainly misread the room here. When I got into this thread I thought we were talking about a simple misunderstanding between neighbors - people on one side who like to walk to the hot tub naked vs. people on the other side who don’t like to see people naked in public. Frankly I didn’t think this was a lot different from asking your neighbor not to mow the lawn at 7:00 a.m. when you work the night shift. I even thought the complainer might ask politely, or that the naked hot tubbers might realize that perhaps they might unwittingly offend a neighbor and an easy solution would be to wrap a towel around themselves.
I certainly didn’t expect the conversation to jump full blown into arguments about rights, and escalating arguments that asking someone to wear a towel in their own back yard is analogous to demanding they get rid of a dog, forbidding Blacks to eat at lunch counters, or that gay marriage should be banned.
Is this how all of you actually deal with your neighbors in real life? If one of them asks you to make a slight modification to something you’re doing because it bothers them, do you tell them you refuse to join the social contract; that they are offended because they choose to be offended; or that you aren’t causing any actual harm so you see no reason to change your behavior?
It’s a wonder we don’t have more fights break out in neighborhoods all over America.
Recall the whole thread is really about a letter to an advice columnist and the columnist’s response. So a society-level discussion about the generic somebody with a tub and the generic somebody living next door. Not about a specific real person with specific real neighbors whose names they know and whose kids go to the same school.
Speaking just for me, what I might prefer society do across the board is probably not what I’ll personally actually do to nice Frank and Edna next door. But might well do to that jerk Tom and his shrew Sally across the back fence.
Separately from the above, as we’ve seen for decades now, change only happens when somebody confronts somebody else’s comfort zone. If you think current society is perfect, then don’t confront anyone about their efforts to maintain the status quo. But if you think society is imperfect, perhaps confronting the forces of stagnation is the morally correct stance.
As others noted above, we don’t have to solve all of society’s ills this week. Or even address them. But we sure ought to address some of them. And vehemently so. Nobody upthread suggested this (Victorian era prudishness in 21st Century USA) was a problem that desperately needs fixing; rather the opposite. But it can’t hurt to point out that it is a problem.
YMMV.
Any more than it can hurt to point out that it’s not in fact a problem. You seem to be wildly overestimating the persuasiveness of your own particular opinions here.
Again, it’s not realistic to refer to mainstream American social norms about publicly visible nudity as “Victorian era prudishness”. The Victorians were a LOT more prudish than the modern Americans who merely find it socially inappropriate for people to be naked where other people can easily and unintentionally see their exposed bodies.
And again, unless you happen to live in a very socially liberal and laid-back community, that social norm is pretty much universal in modern America. The people who think that the existence of that social norm is a “problem”, much less one of “society’s ills”, appear to be a small minority of Americans. Most of us are just fine with having a general social expectation that people won’t be naked, even on their own property, in situations where it’s easy for nearby people to inadvertently see their nakedness.
Even those of us who aren’t particularly bothered by public nudity and wouldn’t care if that expectation happened to be different don’t typically see the current situation as any kind of “problem”, AFAICT.
The societal hazards of permitting publicly visible “private” nakedness on one’s own property aren’t very great, ISTM, but in some cases they could certainly be problematic. E.g., sexual exhibitionists pretending that their deliberate exhibitionism is just “private” nakedness that accidentally happens to be publicly visible. (Hour after hour, day in and day out.)
The societal hazards of not permitting publicly visible nakedness on one’s own property, on the other hand, are basically nil. (If you don’t count “anti-prudishness” recreational outrage on the part of nakedness advocates as a serious societal hazard, which I for one don’t.)
I suppose if you’re too poor to be able to afford even a rag to cover your privates when you’re in the yard where other people can see you, then the “no public nudity” expectation could be a hardship. But that doesn’t seem like a realistic cause for concern in American society overall.
Eh, I don’t think “no public nudity” is a big problem, but I do think it’s an inconvenience for people who have pools or hot tubs. It’s much nicer to swim or bathe in the nude. It just feels nice.
Not a problem I’m willing to expend any social capital to address. But yeah, there is a downside.
Sure, but AIUI the issue isn’t being visibly naked when you’re in the pool or hot tub, right? Don’t most people have privacy/safety fences around the actual “body of water” itself anyway?
The issue here, AFAICT, is about being visibly naked when you’re walking the short distance from your door to the tub or pool. I’m not hearing anybody say that the physical act of wearing a towel or bathrobe for traversing that short distance is in any way a serious inconvenience. Just that they don’t like having to comply with other people’s “prudish” expectations that they’ll do so.
Intimidated by a dachsund? I could see maybe a slavering, snarling Rottweiler or Doberman Pinscher but a dachsund? Hoo boy. If I were your neighbor I’d be waving at him and making kissy faces.
Have you ever had a dachshund? There’s a reason the AKC breed standard says they are brave to the point of rashness. Just sayin’.
I had a miniature dachshund named Goliath. He loved people. He would however, pick fights with much larger dogs and packs of other dogs.
One of my neighbors has a long-haired dachshund. The damn thing barks wildly and strains at its leash whenever another human, including its owner, is within sight, sound, or smell. This being an apartment building, humans are everywhere all the time.
There is nothing the least bit friendly or inviting about its demeanor; it’s clearly indicating pure threat. I’ve not seen it actually attack anyone, but that certainly appears to be the thought going through whatever passes for its mind.
Beware. Dachshunds are one of, if not the top, biting dog breeds. I know. I’ve had them all my life.
Thanks for the warning. One of many reasons that dog ought to be evicted from the premises.
Yeah. Naked in your backyard is fine. Front yard… not so much.
Living in a suburb as we do (kinda), there probably will be fences. But a neighbors upstairs window can easily look down into a yard.
Yep
And honestly, a really tiny bikini is sexier than total nudity, imho.
I concur.
There may be, but at least here in CA, nude hot-tubbing is not part of it.
Yep.