National Day of PRAYER and Rememberance

[Apos]

As I said before, to understand original intent, one must understand what ALL the legislstors’ intent was, not just the writer. If the writer meant “x”, but the other folks voting thought “y”, that doesn’t mean the piece of legislation meant “x”. That’s the point I was trying to make.

I agree that it’s not proof positive. But it does make a pretty decent first case that it’s not a crazy, untextual reading. At the very least, if one of the major authors of the text and one of the biggest figures around thought the TEXT meant something, then it’s hard to simply dismiss it out of hand as it clearly not saying that. It’s not so much a question of what Madison meant in writing it, but rather that afterwards he maintained that that was what the article actually prohibited.

Sorry: I meant textualists, not originalists, which definately through that debate in a weird direction.

[Kalhoun]

@Lord Ashtar

How does Bush asking people to pray for the Katrina victims cost the taxpayers anything?

Because he’s slacking on the job. He’s not doing what he was hired to do.

[The_New_Guy]

@rat

No, but I also don’t consider myself an atheist. To me, atheists seem to be as raving as religious fundamentalists. I guess agnostic would be a better description, I just don’t give it much thought one way or another.

“No true Scotsman” fallacy. You’re saying that atheists are all “raving”, and since you’re not raving, you can’t possibly be an atheist. If you don’t believe in God, then you’re an atheist. I don’t think your generalization that “atheists are raving” is warranted at all. Since you areone, you might want to rethink that generalization, or admit that you are raving.

You seem to have a slanted view of the situation, which is weird since you’re an atheist yourself. When Shodan suggested that people who don’t want to be forced to pray are “uptight assholes with a chip on their shoulders”, Kalhoun responded by suggesting that Christians are “shoving it down people’s throats”. While Shodan’s remark was by far the more offensive one, you chose to jump all over Kalhoun, and say nothing about Shodan. Then you went on to lambast atheists for being “raving”, when the evidence suggests that theists can be just as “raving”. Very strange…

@Shodan

Well, let me give a couple of pico-seconds of thought - perhaps by not praying?

That makes no sense. Again, if we look at the reverse situation, we see that your statement is ridiculous. You are suggesting that a school official can tell all students to pray over the P.A., but it’s O.K. because the students can “not pray”.

But if the reverse happened, and a principal told all the students NOT to pray, there would be a huge outcry. Would those who complained be “uptight assholes”? Again, I think not.

Here’s a clue for you all - most Americans are doing what Bush suggested anyway. This isn’t hurting you, and it isn’t violating any of your rights. So be a good little intolerant, over-sensitive asshole with a grossly inflated sense of your own importance and can it, m’kay?

Hmmm…calling me names - a sure sign of someone who’s lost the argument. And talk about “raving”. I’m really loving your reasoning, by the way. Let’s see - we’ve got:

1. There are more of you than us. (Worst argument of all.)
2. It isn’t hurting me (so YOU say).
3. It isn’t violating any rights, presumably because YOU say so, I guess.
4. You call me infantile names.

Isn’t there some kind of “don’t be a jerk” rule? How is it that Shodan is still here?

You know, diversity, tolerance for differing points of view, blah blah blah, all that donkey shit you folks are always trying to push onto everyone else.

Allowing the government to force IT’S point of view on EVERYONE is not “tolerance”. Surely even you can see that.

@Lord Ashtar

In what context?

What do you mean? The same context as the reverse situation.

[Kalhoun]

@Shodan

Unfortunately, since the President merely mentioning a voluntary day of prayer and remembrance does not constitute “shoving it down people’s throats”, you are talking like one of those intolerant assholes I mentioned earlier.
Well, let me give a couple of pico-seconds of thought - perhaps by not praying?

Here’s a clue for you all - most Americans are doing what Bush suggested anyway. This isn’t hurting you, and it isn’t violating any of your rights. So be a good little intolerant, over-sensitive asshole with a grossly inflated sense of your own importance and can it, m’kay?

You know, diversity, tolerance for differing points of view, blah blah blah, all that donkey shit you folks are always trying to push onto everyone else.

Regards,
Shodan

See, there’s the difference. Your type of believer simply can’t grasp how insulting and exclusive the constant focus on religion is to the people who don’t buy it. We’re not saying you can’t believe…we’re not saying you can’t pray. Go ahead and build a church if you’re so inclined. We’re asking that the Christian-in-Chief do something meaningful with his time in office instead of garnering votes for the next RR candidate. Our nation does not need to be led in prayer by an insincere bible-thumper who doesn’t even practice what he preaches. He needs to do his job. Confusing the presidency with the pulpit does not a strong nation make.

I’m all about diversity. If only the president and his flock had the first clue what it means. There are so many religions out there who don’t feel the need to broadcast their faith from the rooftops. It’s tiresome on a local level. But when you get it from the guy who’s supposed to be leading by example, and he won’t even acknowledge that he’s insulting the non-christians of the country, it’s downright infuriating. You may think it does not harm, but you’d be wrong.

[Duke_of_Rat]

The New Guy You asked if I believe in “God”. I said no. I then said I was probably agnostic, since I don’t really care one way or another. I always considered “God” (capital G) to mean the God in the bible. Don’t believe in that one.
So I don’t feel like any Christians are trying to “shove anything down my throat”, so, to me, Kalhoun’s response seemed like an uptight asshole with a chip on his shoulder. Kinda raving as it were. Shodan just said if it doesn’t apply to you, don’t give it any thought. That sums up my position pretty well. A day of prayer doesn’t apply to me, so I won’t give it any though. I don’t see it as having anything shoved down my throat.

ag·nos·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
   b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
   I consider my position to be more along the lines of 1(b), but also 1(a). I don’t believe in the classical Judeo-Christian God (I hope that’s right, I’m not really up on religious terms/religions), and I don’t know if one exists at all. I don’t worship any other gods, either. But I still don’t group myself in with the atheists. To be honest, I don’t know if I actually know any atheists IRL, but the ones here seem to be more along the lines of ravers. That’s what I based my characterization on.

So I don’t worship any gods, don’t attend any services, don’t pray, don’t follow any religion, don’t try to convert anyone to any religion, and don’t really care or give it any thought. I also don’t get bent if the President declares a day of prayer, if any elected official says “God”, if there is the word “God” on currency or government documents, if the 10 Commandments are in the courthouse. I also think it’s funny that people get bent over these things. Maybe they aren’t raving, but they sure do get bent over it all.

To me, religion has been part of the history of this country, from the Pilgrims to the Founding Fathers to today. It’s not important to me, but it is a part of the history of the country. Like it or not. When enough people don’t like it, then they can outlaw it and that’ll be fine, too.

[Shodan]

@Kalhoun

See, there’s the difference. Your type of believer simply can’t grasp how insulting and exclusive the constant focus on religion is to the people who don’t buy it.

Actually, we can see it, we just don’t care.

There is no right to prevent anyone else from doing something of which you disapprove. And there is also no right for anyone else to give a tin shit if you are going to whine.

A large majority of us want to engage in an activity, which is at the very least harmless. Engaging in that activity does you no hurt, denies none of your rights, and the consequence of ignoring it completely are zero. Ergo, we get to do it and you get to get a grip and deal with it. You don’t like it? Boo hoo for you.

@Kalhoun

I’m all about diversity.

Which, in this context, apparently means no one should be allowed to disagree with you on the subject of prayer.

@Kalhoun

It’s tiresome on a local level. But when you get it from the guy who’s supposed to be leading by example, and he won’t even acknowledge that he’s insulting the non-christians of the country, it’s downright infuriating. You may think it does not harm, but you’d be wrong.

I am sure there is any number of people who find, for instance, the notion of two gays marrying each other infuriating and offensive. I assume you fully support them in their attempts to complain about and/or ban it.

In the interests of diversity and Constitutionality, of course.

@The New Guy

I’m really loving your reasoning, by the way.

Thanks! Stick around, by the way - I got lots more where that came from.

@The New Guy

Let’s see - we’ve got:

1. There are more of you than us. (Worst argument of all.) Except in a constitutional republic, regarding matters not in violation of the Constitution. There it is an exceptional strong, indeed decisive, argument.

2. It isn’t hurting me (so YOU say).Yes, I do say that. And since you cannot apparently produce any evidence that you are in fact being hurt, again I have quite a strong argument. In order to refute it, you would need evidence. Which seems a trifle lacking.

3. It isn’t violating any rights, presumably because YOU say so, I guess.***Well, me and the Supreme Court, thirty-some Presidents, and a substantial majority of the country. ***

4. You call me infantile names.Only when you are being infantile. You wuss.

@The New Guy

Isn’t there some kind of “don’t be a jerk” rule? How is it that Shodan is still here?

Yes, there is. Do you have any indication that “handing you your whiney, puling, crybaby little ass rhetorically” constitutes “being a jerk”?

It’s the Pit, ya pussy. If you are gonna call for the banning of everyone who mocks you for pushing a weak argument, you aren’t going to last.

Regards,
Shodan

[The_New_Guy]

@Duke of Rat

So I don’t feel like any Christians are trying to “shove anything down my throat”, so, to me, Kalhoun’s response seemed like an uptight asshole with a chip on his shoulder. Kinda raving as it were. Shodan just said if it doesn’t apply to you, don’t give it any thought.

Huh? That’s not what he said. He said if you care about it, that you’re an “uptight asshole”.

So I don’t worship any gods, don’t attend any services, don’t pray, don’t follow any religion, don’t try to convert anyone to any religion, and don’t really care or give it any thought. I also don’t get bent if the President declares a day of prayer, if any elected official says “God”, if there is the word “God” on currency or government documents, if the 10 Commandments are in the courthouse. I also think it’s funny that people get bent over these things. Maybe they aren’t raving, but they sure do get bent over it all.

O.K., thanks for clarifying that. So if I understand you, you think that G/god might exist, but you don’t care. Seems like an odd position, but we’ll go with that. Can you not see that maybe some people who are sure that they don’t believe in G/god, might have an opinion as to whether their children are forced to participate in prayers to God in public school? Do you not agree that maybe those children should be allowed to make up their own mind about G/god? I just don’t see how that’s “raving”? Seems pretty reasonable to me. Just because YOU don’t care shouldn’t mean that NOBODY can care, does it?

To me, religion has been part of the history of this country, from the Pilgrims to the Founding Fathers to today. It’s not important to me, but it is a part of the history of the country. Like it or not. When enough people don’t like it, then they can outlaw it and that’ll be fine, too.

Not gonna rehash the whole argument about which of the Founding Fathers were Christian and which were atheist or agnostic, but suffice it to say that the history of this country has included many beliefs (and lack of belief). And no, it WON’T be fine if they outlaw prayer. The government should neither promote it nor prohibit it. It doesn’t go by “when enough people like x…”, that’s what I mean by the “tyranny of the majority”. Rights apply to everyone, not just the biggest group.

And I still disagree with your assessment. As I keep pointing out, if the tables were turned, and an “official day of atheism” were proclaimed, or schools had PA announcements to think about atheism, Christians would scream bloody murder. You KNOW that’s true. In fact, they’d make more noise about it than ANY atheist ever did. Heck, many Christians complain about persecution even now, when they are the majority.

[The_New_Guy]

@Shodan

Yes, there is. Do you have any indication that “handing you your whiney, puling, crybaby little ass rhetorically” constitutes “being a jerk”?

It’s the Pit, ya pussy. If you are gonna call for the banning of everyone who mocks you for pushing a weak argument, you aren’t going to last.

Regards,
Shodan

See, you’re STILL being a jerk. You’re not making any arguments; you’re just calling me names. In fact, I’m reporting your post.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Kalhoun

See, there’s the difference. Your type of believer simply can’t grasp how insulting and exclusive the constant focus on religion is to the people who don’t buy it.

I wish I remember which Doper it was who said it, but I think it fits here very nicely. I hope you read this and take this to heart, Kalhoun.

You do not have the right to not be offended.

[Shodan]

@The New Guy

See, you’re STILL being a jerk. You’re not making any arguments; you’re just calling me names. In fact, I’m reporting your post.

Knock yourself out.

[Emily Latelle voice]

Bitch.

[/EMV]

Regards,
Shodan

[Lord_Ashtar]

@The New Guy

What do you mean? The same context as the reverse situation.

Sorry, didn’t mean to skip this. What I mean is does the principal do it during the morning announcments?

“Good morning, children. Lunch today will be meatloaf and mac 'n cheese. There will be an assembly at 3pm. Also, there is no god. Good day.”

Does he wait until there’s some kind of tragedy?

“I’m sure all of you feel very badly for the students who were on bus #918 when it rolled over 7 times and caught fire. However, please note that praying for the injured and their families is a big waste of time because there is no god.”

Does he just bring it up in conversation with his students?

“Good to see you, Johnny. Nice new backpack. By the way, god is just a construct for the weak-minded. He doesn’t exist. Have a good day!”

So I ask again, in what context?

[Kalhoun]

@Shodan

Actually, we can see it, we just don’t care.

There is no right to prevent anyone else from doing something of which you disapprove. And there is also no right for anyone else to give a tin shit if you are going to whine.

Again, (read slowly and follow along with your finger if you must). we’re not trying to get you to stop with the praying. We are asking that the president at least outwardly pretend he believes in separation of church and state by refraining from leading the country in prayer.

A large majority of us want to engage in an activity, which is at the very least harmless. Engaging in that activity does you no hurt, denies none of your rights, and the consequence of ignoring it completely are zero. Ergo, we get to do it and you get to get a grip and deal with it. You don’t like it? Boo hoo for you.

It most certainly does do harm. Every time he does it, it brings us closer to the very thing our founding fathers ran away from.

Which, in this context, apparently means no one should be allowed to disagree with you on the subject of prayer.

Oh, there’s where you’re wrong. You can believe whatever you want to believe (snicker). All I’m saying is that it’s improper and dangerous to have POTUS lead our secular nation in prayer.

I am sure there is any number of people who find, for instance, the notion of two gays marrying each other infuriating and offensive. I assume you fully support them in their attempts to complain about and/or ban it.

We’re talking about choice in religion, versus orientation with regard to homosexuals. Civil liberties, my friend. The right of each citizen to equal treatment under the law. But you already think it’s a good idea for the president to lead atheists in prayer, so I don’t imagine you’re going to catch on here, either.

[Bricker]

@Mr. Moto

I disagree with you and Diogenes on point 2, for the simple reason that solitary prayer and prayer in a group or gathering are different things, undertaken for different purposes.

Praying with others helps to forge a sense of community and a shared purpose within that community. That is, I believe, the driving force behind these proclamations.

Sure… except that we can easily have a sense of community and a shared purpose within our community without the President taking the lead in proclaiming a day of prayer and rememberance. In fact, disasters like this practically guarantee the development of a sense of community and a shared purpose within that community, regardless of any proclamations. For this reason, I stand behind “redundant.”

Welcome, don’t get me wrong. But redundant.

[Duke_of_Rat]

See, I must have missed the whole “persecution” thing. I went to elementary school in the 60s/early 70s. I went to school with some Jehovah’s Witnesses. They were excused from making Christmas cards, Easter decorations, they didn’t even have to sing or dance in music class. No religion was forced on them. They also didn’t have to say the Pledge of Allegiance. This was just about the time our schools were desegregated (desegregation was enacted here when I started 2nd grade, for reference).

I don’t remember ever being forced to pray. Even in football, it was a big deal to pray before games and at halftime and stuff. Nobody ever gave me shit for not praying. I had surgery at a hospital staffed by nuns (or something…the nurses weren’t nuns, but there were lots of nuns) and one came into my room before the surgery and wanted to go through some prayers and I didn’t know them. I still made it through the surgery just fine and the nun didn’t give me crap about not knowing the prayers. And I didn’t give her crap about reciting them.

I do remember being asked a few times which church I attended and not having one. This was a pretty religious community, not many kids didn’t go to some church, but I was never taunted or made fun of. I said the Pledge of Allegiance and never gave a second thought to pledging “under God”. I’ve been sworn in and had to swear on a bible, it didn’t ruin my life as far as I can tell.

Sorry if I can’t give you more to sink your teeth into, but to me religion is like Muzak. It’s all around you. Some people hum along, some people tune it out. If the President says he’s gonna set a day aside to listen to Muzak, I’d still tune it out.

[The_New_Guy]

@Lord Ashtar

Does he wait until there’s some kind of tragedy?

I don’t think the folks who are trying to institutionalize prayer always wait for a tragedy, so no. They do it at football games, assemblies, you-name-it.

“I’m sure all of you feel very badly for the students who were on bus #918 when it rolled over 7 times and caught fire. However, please note that praying for the injured and their families is a big waste of time because there is no god.”

Yeah, something like that. I can’t tell you the exact wording, because it NEVER HAPPENS, which is exactly my point. If it DID happen, Christians would complain, would they not? It just seems to me that it’s only “not a big deal” when the other guy is complaining. If it bothered YOU, I suspect it would be a big deal.

What point are you trying to make? Do you want a more reasonable wording of a hypothetical PA announcement? How about this:

“Dear students, I believe that in times of need, we should rely on our love of one another and be as supportive and helpful as we can. THAT is the true strength of mankind. We should avoid wasting our energy praying to non-existent entities, and trying to ascribe purpose to events for which there is none. Sometimes bad thing just happen, and our strength as humans lies in our ability to band together and use our reason and compassion to strengthen us, not a mistaken hope that we will be rescued by a magic man in the sky.”

Would that be O.K. with you? If not, why not, and why would the situation be any different than a religious principal espousing his beliefs?

“Good to see you, Johnny. Nice new backpack. By the way, god is just a construct for the weak-minded. He doesn’t exist. Have a good day!”

That’s an interesting hypothetical. Did it ever occur to you that, to an atheist, it sounds very nearly as odd for someone to say, “God loves you Johnny. Have a good day!” We get that same feeling of, “And you’re telling me this because…?”

Seriously, I think it might be a good exercise to really visualize a society where you are the minority, and are constantly inundated with beliefs that seem peculiar to you. It seems to me that you are so used to being in the majority, that you can’t even imagine such a thing.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@The New Guy

“Dear students, I believe that in times of need, we should rely on our love of one another and be as supportive and helpful as we can. THAT is the true strength of mankind. We should avoid wasting our energy praying to non-existent entities, and trying to ascribe purpose to events for which there is none. Sometimes bad thing just happen, and our strength as humans lies in our ability to band together and use our reason and compassion to strengthen us, not a mistaken hope that we will be rescued by a magic man in the sky.”

Would that be O.K. with you? If not, why not, and why would the situation be any different than a religious principal espousing his beliefs?

You’re probably going to blame this on my “having been in the majority for so long”, but I wouldn’t care. If I was bothered by people telling me that there is no God, I would’ve left this board years ago.

Seriously, I think it might be a good exercise to really visualize a society where you are the minority, and are constantly inundated with beliefs that seem peculiar to you. It seems to me that you are so used to being in the majority, that you can’t even imagine such a thing.

I’m going to assume you mean the general “you” instead of me specifically, because otherwise it would be mighty presumptuous of you to assume that I have no idea what it’s like to be a minority.

[ShibbOleth]

I can only pray that this means that the Church of Satan will finally get the broad national forum that they so richly deserve.

I’d much rather that Bush appoint solid managers for FEMA than pray about it after the fact. At least he’s finally taken responsibility for a problem. Maybe the prayer is working.

[The_New_Guy]

@Duke of Rat

See, I must have missed the whole “persecution” thing.

Wait, did I miss someone saying atheists are “persecuted”? I know I never said that.

I went to elementary school in the 60s/early 70s. I went to school with some Jehovah’s Witnesses. They were excused from making Christmas cards, Easter decorations, they didn’t even have to sing or dance in music class. No religion was forced on them. They also didn’t have to say the Pledge of Allegiance. This was just about the time our schools were desegregated (desegregation was enacted here when I started 2nd grade, for reference).

But why exclude people? Why not leave religion to the churches, and schooling to the schools?

I don’t remember ever being forced to pray. Even in football, it was a big deal to pray before games and at halftime and stuff. Nobody ever gave me shit for not praying.

At my school, we didn’t pray AT ALL, and we all survived. What’s wrong with that? You can pray your little heart out all you want the other 138 hours of the week.

I had surgery at a hospital staffed by nuns (or something…the nurses weren’t nuns, but there were lots of nuns) and one came into my room before the surgery and wanted to go through some prayers and I didn’t know them. I still made it through the surgery just fine and the nun didn’t give me crap about not knowing the prayers. And I didn’t give her crap about reciting them.

A private hospital is free to do what they like. We’re talking about public schools here, so seperation of church and state applies. I have no problem with anyone founding a religious hospital if they want to.

I said the Pledge of Allegiance and never gave a second thought to pledging “under God”. I’ve been sworn in and had to swear on a bible, it didn’t ruin my life as far as I can tell.

But what’s your point? Anything’s O.K. as long as it doesn’t “ruin your life”? I just don’t get that whole attitude that you can’t even talk about something without being branded as a “whiner”. Especially when you KNOW that the other side would whine twice as much if the tables were turned.

Sorry if I can’t give you more to sink your teeth into, but to me religion is like Muzak. It’s all around you. Some people hum along, some people tune it out. If the President says he’s gonna set a day aside to listen to Muzak, I’d still tune it out.

I tune out the Muzak too, but it’d be even better if it wasn’t playing at all.

[Miller]

@The New Guy

That’s an interesting hypothetical. Did it ever occur to you that, to an atheist, it sounds very nearly as odd for someone to say, “God loves you Johnny. Have a good day!” We get that same feeling of, “And you’re telling me this because…?”

You tend to grow out of that feeling sometime after college.

Seriously, I think it might be a good exercise to really visualize a society where you are the minority, and are constantly inundated with beliefs that seem peculiar to you. It seems to me that you are so used to being in the majority, that you can’t even imagine such a thing.

I think an experience with being in a minority that’s genuinely discriminated against would do you a world of good.

Incidentally, you might want to read the forum descriptions before you go reporting any more posts.

[The_New_Guy]

@Lord Ashtar

You’re probably going to blame this on my “having been in the majority for so long”, but I wouldn’t care. If I was bothered by people telling me that there is no God, I would’ve left this board years ago.

Not the same thing, my friend. The free exchange of ideas and beliefs in a public forum is not the same at all as a public official forcing beliefs on a captive audience.

I’m going to assume you mean the general “you” instead of me specifically, because otherwise it would be mighty presumptuous of you to assume that I have no idea what it’s like to be a minority.

I only meant that in regard to religion. I meant no comparison to ethnic minorities.

@miller

You tend to grow out of that feeling sometime after college.

That argument lacks merit. It’s really just a thinly disguised ad-hominem (“you’re immature”). Pretty weak.

I think an experience with being in a minority that’s genuinely discriminated against would do you a world of good.

As I said, I meant no comparison to any other situation, so calm down.

Incidentally, you might want to read the forum descriptions before you go reporting any more posts.

Thanks, I read the rules and I’ll do as I like.