It seems to me that Sean isn’t demanding payment for saving you; she’s demanding paymnt for risking life and limb in the process. If Sean could save your life withou putting her own in serious dangerasking for a reward would be less understandable.
Since you mention court…suppose Sean, who is neither a fireman nor a Kryptonian, requests a promise of payment before staying in the burning basement to try to save you. You decline, so she beats feet out of there; the basement ceiling collapses an d you die. Do your heirs have a claim for wrongful death? Should Sean be arrested for murder?
Why should Sean have to risk her life to save yours without your agreement to reward her financially being enforceable?
Yeah, I’d do it. A one time romp that he risked his life for and saved mine? Indeedy. And if it wasn’t bad, there might even be more where that came from, as long as he doesn’t end up all clingy. If so, it’s one and done.
I’m not sure what the law says, but in my opinion, no. There is no obligation on anyone to risk their lives to save others. We admire people who do, and we disdain as cowardly those who might have saved a life but chickened out instead. But other than offering them a white feather every so often, there is no legitimate sanction.
Here’s a new finesse, though: suppose she demands that I pay up, in advance. “You’ve got a couple hundred dollars in your wallet. Pay it to me, and I’ll free you.” I pay, she frees me.
Now, I’m going to sue her for the money back, and ask the police to look into criminal charges. It’s called extortion, and it’s WAY against the law.
A lot of it will come down to my perception of Sean’s demands/negotiations/requests. I’m actually a lot MORE likely to sleep with Sean if she said “Just in case we die, I have to say this: I’ve always wanted to sleep with you.”
Demanding it? Extorting it? No, I’ve got no interest in dealing with manipulative people like that. They’re liars and cheats and just plain dangerous. I’ve left a few of them behind in my life and I don’t look back. And as much as I value my promises, I’m giving myself an out when it comes to people like this.
Also, I’m surely putting more weight on sex here than most people. I’ve had sex with exactly one person in my life and kind of hope to keep it that way. (Realistically, I’ll outlive her and probably find someone else, but we don’t need the long version here.) Even if I’m hypothetically unattached for this scenario, I am just not wired to be a casual sex kind of guy. In my single days, I turned down girls who were a lot more desirable than this Sean person.
Although I agree that this is morally equivalent to extortion, I’m skeptical that the legal system would (or should) consider it extortion. Is there a lawyer who could comment on this? Sean has no duty of care to do anything, and Sean’s only “threat” is continued inaction. It’s reprehensible behaviour, but I’m struggling to see how or why it can be illegal.
Nitpick: Sean isn’t threatening CONTINED inaction. She can’t, because she began struggling to free you before making the suggestion that you should repay her life-saving actions with sex, and continues throughout. So she’s threatening a cessation of the rescue.
I’m not sure if that makes her actions better or worse. One might argue that she never intended to leave you to die in the fire no matter what she said, since her attempts at rescue began before asking for the rescue. I’d be more inclined to believe that as she was working she became more aware of the jeopardy she was putting herself in and may have decided that it was not worth it without at least some hope of reward.
Skald, you keep suggesting people “welsh”. You may be deliberately doing this in order to take a swipe at the denizens of Wales; in which case jolly good, carry on.
Otherwise, you may not be aware the word is welch.
I honestly have no idea which of those is the case.
I wasn’t trying to slam the people of Wales. It occurred tome after I had typed that several times that the it was a slur (in either spelling; the OED lists “wesh” as primary and “welch” as the variant, but both originate as a insult to Cardiffians and their countrymen), so I have tried to say “renege” instead. I was an adult before I ever knew that “welsh” a “welch” were an insult to an ethnic group. It was my my intention to mock them.
I’ll just state the principles rather than tease out the hypotheticas…
In the case of medical bills, now we are talking about Sean actually being injured. Medical reimbursement for medical harm is only fair. I’d do this in the absence of a threat because it seems fair. In the absence of injury, I wouldn’t pay a reward, because altruism isn’t supposed to be transactional.
Not under all conditions. When the counterparty uses unethical means to get something out of me under duress, then they forego their right to expect integrity.
The OP specifies that Sean not only endagers her life by saving yours but is injred bldly enough in the process to need the ER, and could have spared herself the injury and danger by beating feet out of the basement. So that was part of hte scenario from the beginning…
Altruism, by definion, is not transactional. But the OP doesn’t describe an altruistic situation. Sean never claims to be altruistic.
Forget the sex aspect, just focus on the promise of re4ward. Let’s say the eward was something you could conceivably pay, but would hurt. Five thousand dollars, when you have a ten thousand in your savings. Is your life (not to mention your honor) not worth five grand? How is refusing to pay Sean the promised sum any diferent from refusing to pay an ER bill? It seems to me that refusingn to pay Sean is worse than stiffing the ER, because the EMTs, doctors, and nurses are typically not risking their lives to save you, while Sean clearly was.
Again, Sean is not the one who created the peril. She was in no less danger of death than you, just better equipped to escape. She’s not your parent or spouse, not a firefighter or cop, and so has no legal obligation to save yu, much less to endanger herself in the process. How is it right to deny her a reward you agreed to?
I don’t know how many ways I can explain it, but I don’t consider any agreement made under duress to be valid. If Sean hadn’t mentioned it at all, I would probably have been moved to pay their medical bills sua sponte. But the implied threat taints the entire agreement.
I understand your position. I’m just tryingot understand how (or whether) stiffing Sean is different from refusing to pay medical bills. When I was taken to the ER in March of last year, I had to sign all kinds of paperwork about insurance and deductibles and copyas, guaranteeing payment. I was under duress in th sense that if I ha refused to guarantee payment or been unable to, they’d have given me the minimum of painkillers and streeted me. Would lI have been justifid in not paying?
This is getting into hairsplitting, but in the natural disaster scenario, Sean saw an opportunity to turn the circumstance to his/her own advantage and took it. There was no pre-existing contract about what would happen in those circumstances.
Well, this is a little different. You were aware of the terms of medical care before you went to the ER. It’s not as if they sprung it on you, so their terms are untainted by opportunism.
But having said that, here again… lying to save your own life, because we live in a society that says you die if you don’t have enough money? Absolutely lie your ass off to save your life. It’s not like you’ll get off scot free for nonpayment of bills. There’s plenty of time to savor the consequences later, but first save your life however you must.
When you are in real fear of losing your life, or enduring intense physical pain, I don’t think its reasonable to expect someone to stick to their word. I mean if a criminal has taken me hostage and is pistol-whipping me about the face, beating my face to a pulp, threatening me, sticking a gun in my mouth and telling me to promise him I won’t call the cops while he goes in some back room to break into a safe or something, and I make that promise, are you really going to consider me immoral for breaking that promise and calling the cops while he isn’t looking? Nobody is pondering the ethics of lying or breaking their word in such a situation, they are in fear of their life, and trying to keep themselves alive. To me although circumstances are different in the OP its still similar enough that I don’t feel I could judge the person harshly for breaking their word.
1> Promises made under duress do not require keeping. This isn’t a matter of honor, it is a matter of honor in a completely different respect.
2> Bottom Line: "Well Sean, I wanted to live and I’d have told you anything I had to in order to get you to SAVE MY FUCKING LIFE. Personally, your actions are a bit despicable. Were you seriously going to allow me to die if I didn’t agree? And you think that’s ok, do you? I’m going to let it slide and keep my silence, but if you want to make a public issue about it, I’m fine with that too. I think you’ll find most people on my side and your reputation won’t be one you like."
I’m not talking about lying; i’m talking about breaking your word. They aren’t quite teh same thing.
If I had gone to the ER, been asked if I had insurance, and said I did when I did not, I would have lied (and had a hard time getting away with it, as they require proof, but there’s ways that could happen).
If I had gone to the ER, agreed to the parts of the bill not covered by insurance , and then, after getting the bill, decided “No, I’m not paying thi even though I have the funds inmy checking accout; they had me over a barrell when I signed that paper because I would have been in intolerable agony without morphine,” I have brken my word.
So again: Sean agrees to risk her own safety to save your life only if you agree to pay her $5000 afterwards. You have $10,000 in a savings account, so you can make hte payment; it’ll just hurt. Do you stiff her?