Btw, what’s a Nebbish?
A person, generally male, regarded as ineffective or feckless. A wimp.
I specified that Sean is a nebbish becuase I ished to emphasize that in the post-ER meeting, you are in no danger from Sean. It’s not like Sean is Jack Reacher or Buffy Summers (who admittedly would feel no need to us such means to get sex). Oringally I called Sean a creep rather than a nebbish in the thread title.
If I’d promised Sean money I’d feel obligated to pay up. But my stance is that consent for sex should be able to be withdrawn at any time (so I wouldn’t normally make a promise to sleep with someone).
i probably would feel guilty for not having sex with Sean. But if I did sleep with him I feel it would be somewhat coerced - I’d rather live with the guilt.
We’re using it in a pretty similar sense. I’m saying that I’m not obliged to do it. I can’t be obligated when I assert that I (and everyone else) have a right to refuse sex, even if we already agreed to. It’s kind of like Kantian philosophy. Ideally, any moral that I use for myself should be suitable for everyone to adopt as a universal principle.
There are things I’m not obligated to do that I might do anyway, just for the sake of being trustworthy or consistent or nice, but I’m not really feeling a lot of niceness towards people who extort sex out of life and death circumstances.
Back in college, my best old ex-friend Ray used to say that you can have the right to do something but still be wrong to do it. 25 yers ago I disgreed, but now I think he was right.
The right to decline sex is absolute; it has to be in a just society. So the hypothetical you has the right to renege on the deal, but is probably wrong to exercise tht right (but should face no consequences for doing so, except perhaps shunning).
Sean has the right to ASK the thypothetical you to knock boots as agreed, but may do anything but ask; it would be wrong to try to enforce that right.
In the modified scnarnio, where Chris has offered Sean sex in exchange for risking his life for hers, Chris again has the right to renege but is even more wrong to renege.
In the life-saving for money scenario, though, I don’t see how you can morally renege. How does that differ from refusing to pay an ER bill when you can easily do so?
To me the ethical question is “is it OK to lie to save my life, as long as it doesn’t risk anyone else?” Much rests on the qualifier. The question then becomes whether my actions cause Sean to take on additional risk. By extending the offer, Sean has already demonstrated a willingness to take that extra risk before I even respond to the offer. I didn’t persuade him to take on extra risk, so I have no problem lying to sidestep the coercive offer.
I would be most grateful and would be his sex slave for one year.
Except Sean did take on extra risk. Sean made the offer before freeing you from the death-trap and while the danger of her own death or injury was rising. Sean could have left at any moment; she had no obligation to stay. Your promise of sex was the incentive she needed to save you.
Skald the Rhymer, why did you make Sean’s gender the same as the victim’s prefer orientation? Why not make s/he victim’s non-preferred gender? It’s rape either way, you’re forced to have sex with someone you don’t want.
Ah, the Dan Fielding scenario. Unless I found Sean physically repulsive, yeah, I’d do it.
I don’t think this rises to the level of rape. Sean is not forcing sex on the hypothetical you;; at most she forced a promise. No power or even coercion is being applied to enforce fulfillment of that promise Sean’s behavir is creepy, but not, it seems to me, illegal.
Sean is female for straight men and lesbians and male for gay men and straight women because, for a lot of people, sleeping with a random stranger of their preferred genr is acceptable but sleeping with someone of the wrong gender.
If you think Sean’s behavior is rape: does it remain so in the cases where the hypothetical you is willing to pay up for the sake of the promise? The very first respondent was willing to do so, after all, so long as Sean was free of STDs.
Is it rape in the variant where Chris makes the offer to Sean?
Is it murder if Sean refuses to rsk her life to save the hypothetical you and simply flees?
Why is it right for the hypothetical you to benefit from Sean’s risking her life and getting injured without doing as promised? t’s not like Sean is Poseidon; she didn’t cause the earthquiake or create the danger.
ETA: i stll hate rhetorical questions, and none the above tare things I hate.
In order for Sean to make that offer, she first had to decide that she would be OK following through on the risk. That happened before I said or did anything. Everything after that was just extortion, and I’m OK with lying my way out of being extorted for sex with my life on the line. Or with a pack of gum on the line, for that matter.
Yes, I consider the scenario rape. You’ve already removed physically attraction, emotional bond as reasons for sex. Therefore Sean’s gender really doesn’t matter. As you say it’s not acceptable for most people to sleeping with someone of the wrong gender, why would it matter if it is the correct gender.
You’ll lie under allconditions?
i agree that the right of personal integrity trmps the obligation to keep one’s word; Sean may not enforce the promise of a one-nighter by anything but guilt. But what about the non-sex promises? Will you renege on a promise to pay Sean’s medial bills oif she’s injured saving your life, or to pay her a reward whether she’s injured or not?
In my late twenties and early thirties, I’d fuck most any willing woman unless she were outright hideous, but no man no matter how pretty he was. I was not unique in that way.
Well, as long as I get my money back…
Not even to save yourself from being trapped under debris in an earthquake? See, this is why your hypothetical is more interesting if Sean is someone of your non-preferred gender.
I’d try very hard not to make any real promises. But I’d also be willing to defend my non-payment in court. Is a promise made in an extreme situation, under fear of death, a legitimate contract? I’d say no: the situation is intrinsically coercive.
If the guy is such a monster as to demand payment to save my life, yes, I’ll lie my ass off.
If the guy wants reassurance that he won’t come out the loser – demands coverage for medical costs if he gets injured – I’m not sure. I think the same applies: I can’t be held liable for promises made while a deadly building collapse is hanging over my head. I’d hold the guy to be a total ass even to ask this.
(Also, workplace, remember? The company pays medical costs for on-the-job injuries. This hypothetical is badly constructed: you ought to have made it two complete strangers, both caught in a parking-garage collapse, with no workplace regulations to govern them.)
No, because I have no problem lying to Sean. If she looked and acted like Amy Farrah Fowler in early BBT, I would. If she looked like Bernadette, I’d be mystified as to her motivations, but if I were single I would.
As for more interesting: more so for you, maybe. I do not and cannot write hypos based on what other people find more interesting; how could I predict that.? I specified that Sean is of an acceptable gender and appearance to concentrate the issue on that of keeping one’s word. Similarly, Sean is a nebbish so as not to be a threat. If Sean were, I don’t know, some seven-foot-fix, super-strong orc making the demand with the condition that refusal to submit would result in him taking what he wanted by force then I’d submit for practical reasons. But I didn’t want to dicuss “What would yu do if a vastly larger and stronger foe demanded sex” either.
But why would keeping your word even be an issue if there’s no downside for you in doing so?
Not that I’m going to keep beating this horse. Man, what a weird thing for me to argue about.