Ok so a friend of mine who was in the national guard and has been out a few years gave me all kinds of military gear, I was under the impression that the gear was his personal property but it turns out it was gear he was supposed to turn back in to the military. So anyway I tried to sell military body armor on the Internet because I thought it was ok as long as it was to another military member. It was on the base and turned out to be an MP sting. so they took me in and questioned me and I told them the truth, they called my friend and he told them what national guard unit he was in and his social and everything and that he gave me the stuff. I told them about the other stuff he gave me because I thought if I cooperated they would just drop it. they said they couldn’t charge me with anything until the ran the info on the vest which they confiscated, although it only has a NSN number and no serial. I asked the inspector if I turned in the other gear if that could open me up to more potential charges for possessing that gear but he refused to give me a direct straight answer so I’m kind of hesitant now to turn in the other gear because it does have serials and although I didn’t attempt to sell the other stuff I’m still scared I might screw myself over if I do that. It’s been a week since this incident and still nothing has happened to me…yet and the only thing I can think is maybe they can’t find anything or they are putting a case together or maybe trying to get some warrant or something to raid my house to look for the gear. Not really sure what to do and if I should turn in the other gear or not. for the record I am a member of the military. And I also have a secret clearance so I am pretty worried about the outcome. I guess on Monday I may go to the JAG office and talk to a lawyer just in case.
Maybe you should just give the rest of the gear back to your friend.
Threads seeking legal advice go in IMHO. I’ll move this there for you.
twickster, MPSIMS moderator
See a JAG officer immediately. Do NOT speak to another military police or investigator even to say ‘hello’. They’re not there to be your friends; their job is to make an arrest and prosecute.
I’d definitely recommend you get yourself a lawyer. One that works for you and not the military.
does a former civilian employee of defense count? the others roughly covered it but don’t be talking to your “national guard” friend for now. are you even sure he was in the service?
Military Trial Defense Services get paid by the military, but they work for the accussed. No need to go waste money on a civilian lawyer. Especially not for something as simple as this.
You were in possession of stolen property that you tried to sell.
However, you had no idea it was stolen property, and they will have a difficult time proving you “should” have known. Many members of the military buy their own armor.
Since there is no serial number on the item you were selling (I assume, then, that these weren’t SAPI or ESAPI plates) they probably can’t even prove the shit is or ever was military property at all.
Do not mention the other stuff at all. Ever. Especially not to the MPs. If you are asked a direct question about “other” gear, either by an MP or a superior, respectfully remain silent and plead the 5th. Even if your commanding officer asks you, “Do you have more gear?” Just say “Sir, I respectfully wish to refrain from answering that question until I have spoken to TDS.” But, no matter what, do not lie.
As far as what to do with it. Definitely get it out of your house. (Or barracks room?) Give it all back to your National Gaurd buddy. If he won’t take it, find an amnesty box somewhere and just dump it. Yes, those are normally for ammunition, but that’s probably the best place to drop it if he won’t take it back. At least it will be taken back to CIF, which is better than dropping it in a dumpster. Maybe call the MPs (not from your cell phone, obviously) and leave an anonymous tip that you just noticed a lot of TA50 by an amnesty box and they should go get it. At least that way, nobody else picks it up.
Good luck. It’s pretty lame. But I wouldn’t stress over it. I think you’re in the clear. Just keep your mouth shut and don’t try to be too “helpful”.
When you were questioned the first time and admitted to having more gear, did they advise you of your right to speak with TDS and/or have a lawyer present before answering? Did they make you sign a statement saying you understood your rights?
Were you questioned by MPs, or CID? Did they do the whole interview thing where you sign the sworn statement afterwards that is basically a recount of the whole conversation? If so, did it include all the stuff about the other gear? Just curious.
Anyway, like I said. I wouldn’t stress it if I were you.
Yes I did tell them about the other gear so they know it exists but I have not turned it in. They did read me my rights and make me sign the form that I was made aware of them but I hVe not been officially charged yet. I live off-post but I have moved the gear elsewhere for now so I don’t have to worry if they do search my housing. I pretty much already told the inspector everything but when he tried to officially question me about it I refused as he had advised me it was my right to do so. If they do call me back later for questioning I will refuse to answer any questions without a lawyer, and I’m def going to go and find one at JAG on Monday. I only attempted to sell the vest with the soft inserts, my friend didn’t give me any SAPI or E-SAPI plates, which I know would make it even more serious. One big reason I’m concerned about whether to turn anything in or not is because I was given a gas mask which is of course a sensitive item, and I don’t want to make the wrong decision and open myself up to potentially more charges. I’m going to raise the gas mask issue with the JAG lawyer. yes I’m absolutely sure my friend was in the National Guard, we have been friends for over a decade.
My opinion is that “Bear Nenno” gave you good advice.
(22 years US Army)
I’m not implying that his defense lawyer would betray his interests to the military. My point was that he should be seeking legal advice before he does something that may get him charged with a crime.
I’m not military and I’m not very conversant with how the JAG office works. But does it provide free legal counsel to any member of the military who walks in and asks for it? And does that legal counsel fall under attorney-client privilege?
I’m seeing it as the equivalent of me, as a civilian, walking into the District Attorney’s office, telling them about a possible crime I committed, and asking their advice.
And I don’t think we should be giving somebody, who by his own admission may end up facing criminal charges, any legal advice. Especially legal advice on what statements to make to the authorities or discussions of concealing evidence. To me this is well past the gray area of online legal advice.
Navy JAG services. Attorney-client privilege absolutely applies.
Don’t think of it as the DA’s office. Think of it as the public defender’s office. There is a seperate section of legal gurus who are in charge of defending Soldiers. They are far outside of any client’s chain-of-command, so there is no conflict of interest. In fact, IMO, they pride themselves on getting Soldiers out of trouble, and they are sticklers for policy, proper paperwork and detail. Just like you would expect from a civilian lawyer. In some ways, I think they are bringing down the military and making it weaker. They are why it takes 13 months to get rid of a guy who goes AWOL in combat. Or the guys who make it next to impossible to discipline a Soldier without 9 pages of paperwork to back it up.
But they serve a needed purpose, and are good at their jobs. In my experience, TDS is better at their job than the MPs are of their own, which is a good thing for Soldiers like the OP.
I think it’s still fine. It’s like a message board telling someone how to respond to a police officer who asks to search his car. It’s basic stuff.
To the OP:
Understand that it isn’t illegal to sell body armor. It isn’t illegal to sell ESAPI plates or to possess them. Same thing goes for the gas mask. The only problem here is that the property belongs to the government. But they have to prove that it belongs to the government. The gas mask doesn’t have a serial number either, as far as I know.
Just because your friend was in the National Gaurd, and just because he has equipment that was never turned in to his unit… that doesn’t mean that the particular equipment you were selling is the SAME equipment he failed to turn it. It is equally likely that he had two or three extras of everything which he aquired at various Military Surplus stores, and it is those items which you currently possess. How can they prove that the particular items you sold are the ones that belong to the government? They can’t. Which is why I think you’re going to be fine.
Just so it’s clear, I don’t condone stealing from the government or selling stolen property. But I don’t like the way the military can charge a person for stuff he failed to turn in, make you pay for its replacement value, and still say “Even though you were charged and you paid for this stuff, it is still government property. So if you find it later, you must turn it in. Oh, and we’re not refunding you for the stuff you turn in later. But make sure you turn in it, because it’s ours!”
I also don’t like how the MPs would assume tactical equipment automatically is property of the government. There are plenty of outlets to legally purchase just about everything you are issued. The fact that they confiscated the equipment in order to “find out” if it is stolen, is silly. I’ve been told before when buying similar equipment that I should keep my receipts from such purchases so that the military doesn’t try to take it from me or accuse me of stealing. Screw that. That’s not how it should work. Why do I need to prove I bought something legally? It is their job to prove I didn’t, not the other way around.
I can go order some ESAPI plates from Point Blank, Inc right now. And if I sell them a year from now, even on base, why should I have to worry about a freaking sting operation?
At this point your probably concerned about minimizing the damage to your career. If you haven’t already, go through your chain of command to let your commanding officer know whats happening. It’ll go much better for you if your commander hears your side before someone from CID shows up to notify him that he has a troop under investigation for receiving stolen merchandise, selling stolen merchandise, obstructing an investigation, etc. Odds are you won’t be charged be charged with anything, but, there’s a good chance you could end up with an Article 15 or at the very least an official reprimand.
Definitely talk to the JAG office, but keep your supervisor and commander in the loop.
Yeah I am definitely going to JAG tomorrow. My First Sergeant and Commander already know, they are kind of oddities as far as the Army goes though in that they are both extremely nice, almost too nice. my first Sergeant didn’t even yell at me when he had to pick me up from the MP station. I had to talk to the Commander in private with the First Sergeant and he really didn’t say much, just “I hope you learned something from all this”. But they both told me that nobody had called them yet and they thought I would probably be ok and it was a good sign.
everyone’s entitled to counsel, whether professional or friendly but yes, you have a point. at this stage, online discussion is past.