Of course it happens. Note that I even blamed Netanyahu for making it worse. Without Netanyahu, however, it would be back to the endless cycle of Hamas bombs a school bus or fires rockets into a civilian area, followed by IDF retaliation where the attempt is made to kill a Hamas leader, but little care is made to preserve civilian lives. And then Hamas will retaliate, and then the IDF will retaliate, and on and on, over and over until Hamas is stopped one way or the other.
Yeah we need to get rid of that crook Netanyahu who is making this worse. But still the cycle of violence would continue.
The thing is we know the names, ages, locations and the circumstances of the deaths of almost everyone who has died in Gaza. So if the children the IDF were killing were actually terrorists, you would be able to tell me their names, where, and how they died. I challenge you do do so.
The reality is that over a thousand babies have been killed in Gaza since the start of this “war” under the age of one. 450 of them were born and died during this conflict. I can assure you that none of them were terrorists.
There are more child amputees in Gaza than anywhere else in the world. And the crisis is even bigger now because of how difficult it is to get the raw materials through required to manufacture prosthetic limbs. It’s a crisis that could easily be solved if the illegal occupiers allowed it.
The article goes into detail about how unreliable this system is.
It’s the stuff of dystopian nightmares. A faceless, inhuman machine making decisions on who lives and who dies. But that isn’t the worst of it.
Bolding mine.
This isn’t a case of “Hamas hiding in places where there were children.”
This was a deliberate decision to kill these people (who may or may not have been terrorists or Hamas) in their homes.
Some “journalists” work with the IDF. Are they no longer journalists? Are they now legitimate targets?
And just like the children we know the circumstances of how each and every single one of the journalists in Gaza were killed. From the Committee to Protect Journalists:
This is a fairly definitive statement. On the one hand, you seem to be saying there are no legitimate journalists in Gaza, and on the other, we have the leading organisation on the planet dedicated to protecting journalists saying something very different.
Can you defend your characterisation of the situation at all and explain why the CPJ have gotten it so wrong?
The IDF isn’t allowing in international journalists. There are still journalists in Gaza.
Because firstly, the killings of journalists are targeted attacks. Abdallah Alwan was killed in an airstrike on his home. Same with Abdallah Iyad Breis. Same with Abdelhalim Awad. Ahmed Abu Al-Rous was killed along with five other people after a drone strike on his car. You can look the rest up yourself.
They know exactly who they were killing.
Secondly, the IDF has covered Gaza with drones. The incessant hum of drones over Gaza is one of the other dystopian things that Palestinians living in Gaza talk about. It never, ever stops. It even has a Wikipedia entry. They call it zanana.
There is a very clear picture here. It’s why Netanyahu and Gallant have been indicted by the ICC, it’s why Israel is currently at the ICJ being accused of genocide.
They should comply with international law. That includes ending the siege on Gaza. That includes complying with the interim ruling made by the International Court of Justice, which included
-Prevent genocide and desist from killing, injuring, destroying life and preventing births
-Desist from incitement, and punish acts of and encouragement to genocide
-Enable the provision of basic services and humanitarian assistance
-Prevent the destruction of and ensure the preservation of evidence
-Submit ongoing reports to the Court on measures taken
-Suspension of military operations
-Refrain from aggravating the situation
This includes eventually withdrawing from the occupied territories.
Its relevant because people keep pretending it is a ‘small number of extremists’ in Gaza who are behind this and that 99% of Palestinians are innocent victims. Hamas was democratically elected, and 72% of Palestinians supported the attacks that started the war.
It would behoove a lot of people to learn what rage-baiting is.
It’s basically how Islamist propaganda works. They find protected buildings and protected groups like mosques, hospitals, medical centers, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, journalists, etc. Then they put militants and weapons there, and they fire weapons from these things. After Israel fires back, then social media says ‘Israel targets schools, ambulances and hospitals’, causing people to become filled with rage, disgust and contempt. This creates international pressure against Israel.
Islamic extremists are playing the long game. They know they can’t win the war in Gaza, but their goal is to make Israel a pariah state by staging militants and weapons in protected buildings, and hoping Israel fires on them until the international community turns on Israel, making it harder for them to sustain themselves in the long run, making it easier to overthrow them decades from now.
Also of the journalists who have been killed, how many were working with militant groups? I don’t know. Possibly 60%.
But some of you act like Israel just sits there ignoring militants and decides to target hospitals instead, knowing there are no militants or weapons there.
Militants shot from a hospital. Israel attacked back, and took the hospital. It was full of Israel soldiers. They photographeds a few rifles they found. Then, did they attempt to hold the hospital and prevent it from being used for future bombings? They did not. They tore it down.
It’s not as if there are major munitions factories under those hospitals. There are a few laptops, a few guns. Heck, maybe even a hand-held middle launcher. Things that are easy to move around and that Hamas can put pretty much anywhere. Does it actually make Israel safer to raze the building where Hamas put a few thousand dollars worth of movable military-related stuff? It’s hard to see how.
Yes, Hamas is baiting Israel into looking like monsters. And Israel is leaping to take that bait. It’s almost as if there are a lot of monsters in the Israeli military desperate for any excuse to destroy civilian infrastructure and kill Palestinian children.
I have friends in Israel. They are decent people. Israel isn’t full of monsters. I don’t know a lot of Palestinians. But I’m willing to bet a lot of money that most of them aren’t monsters, either.
There are people here that support the American government’s decision to kill practically the entire leadership of Iran. Are they guilty? Do we believe in collective guilt now? What are they guilty of? What should the punishment be?
And the civilians who may or may not have approved of October the 7th: what are they guilty of? And what should the punishment be?
Do you believe we should punish thought crimes?
That election was 20 years ago. 75% of Palestinians weren’t old enough to vote when they got elected.
You’ve read enough of my posts by now. Do you think I’m stupid enough to fall for rage-baiting? How about Amnesty International? Human Rights Watch? Do you think they are stupid as well?
We aren’t falling for “Islamist propaganda.” Why is it so hard for you to believe that we are all adults here making our own decisions? I’m filled with rage, disgust and contempt not because of “propaganda” but because of the things the Isreali government has decided to do.
Again: this doesn’t match what actually happened on the ground.
You are asking us to ignore the evidence and just believe this narrative you’ve created. I’ll stick to the evidenec.
Why don’t you believe the CPJ?
Just for the record: your cite comes from an organisation that is part of a The Center for the Commemoration of the Heritage and Intelligence Community, which seeks to “preserves the history of Israeli intelligence (such as the Mossad and Shin Bet), and operates public education programs.” It is hardly an unbiased source.
You are citing John Spencer again. Along with Dr. Brian L. Cox and Arsen Ostrovsky. They are all propagandists. Just go check out their Twitter accounts. They have no standing to weigh in on this debate. They aren’t some independent arbiter of truth.
As for the rest of your cites: some of them come from 2014. One of them is from one of the parties that stand credibly accused of genocide. None of them address any of the hospitals that were attacked during the current conflict.
So lets start with the Turkish Palestinian Friendship Hospital. Why was it put under siege? What was it raided? Why was it turned into an Israeli military outpost? Why was it destroyed? Evidence from primary sources only if you have them: I’m not particularly interested in your opinion.
Yes, Israel has consistently made the classic mistake that regular militaries fighting against non-state actors frequently make in that they define tactical victory based on taking territory, killing important people and destroying infrastructure. Hamas could take any place where they are able to get recruits and sympathizers and make it a headquarters tomorrow. There is virtually no amount of these kinds of tactical victories that can add up to a strategic victory.
…just needed to make it clear that Hamas are ready to hand over to the interim administration as defined by the ceasefire arrangement, the National Committee for the Administration of Gaza.
The members of the NCAG have been elected and agreed upon and vetted by Israel. The only thing holding it up is the fact that… Israel isn’t letting the NCAG members into Gaza.
When you reject the suggestion to stop killing children, raping, and settler terrorism? Yes, obviously. It’s not hard to say “yes, Israel and the IDF should stop killing children, raping prisoners, and settler terrorism”.
CPJ is reviewing their list of journalists killed because some keep showing up as actually being militant or militant affiliated.
War crimes need to be prosecuted. I agree with that. But no other nation on earth faces the level of propaganda and double standards that Israel does.
Israel has been condemned by the UN for human rights violations more than every other nation on earth combined. Its not because Israel’s human rights are the worst in the world, its because the world applies different standards to them. This is why the Jews need their own homeland, because they are easy targets. 180 countries on earth are christian majority or muslim majority, and Jews are not safe there. The right wing, the left wing, christians, muslims, etc all agree that they don’t like the Jewish people, which is why they need their own nation they control to keep themselves safe.
Despite all the massive threats Israel faces, and the double standards people apply to them, they are still showing vastly superior human rights than most other nations would in this same situation. Nonetheless, legitimate war crimes need to be investigated and prosecuted no matter who commits them.
Having said that, Netanyahu is a criminal and I wish he had been put in prison for his corruption crimes before all this started.
…look at the date. It isn’t “reviewing its list.” It reviewed its list. The number then was 209; as of today, when I cited it earlier, it is 212. So again: why don’t you believe them?
Like what exactly? For example, I’ve said a lot of things about Israel’s conduct in Gaza since 2023. How much of it do you consider to be objectively wrong?
There are no “double standards” here. I challenge you to point those double standards out. And again, in regard to propaganda, the biggest reason why people are turning against Israel, especially now, is because we are seeing what they are doing. It isn’t a secret. It’s never been a secret. The way they treated Ro Khanna wasn’t an aberration. It was standard operating procedure. It’s just the way Palestinians have been treated for decades.
Here’s a question: Which UN resolutions against Israel do you think were undeserved? Because the resolutions represent decades of documented violations. The only “different standard” being applied here is by the United States, which often defy international consensus and protects Israel from consequences for their actions.
Please don’t conflate valid criticism of Isreal’s government with the persecution of the Jewish people. If you want to defend Israel’s conduct in this conflict, then defend it on its merits. But you aren’t going to find anyone here saying anything about Isreal that isn’t based on either its human rights record or its conduct in the West Bank and Gaza.
https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell
This thread is about Israel/Gaza/West Bank: so it’s the appropriate place to talk about Israel’s “vastly superior human rights record” is here. I don’t think they are showing “vastly superior human rights than most other nations would in this same situation” at all. I don’t think that’s an actual metric that makes any sense.
So you support the many resolutions brought against Israel at the UN then? The arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant from the ICC? The case bought by South Africa to the ICJ? Do you think the soldiers who killed the15 Palestinian paramedics should be held accountable?
I did no such thing- it would be very nice if those things could end. . But you still havent defined “Child” in this context- is a 15 yo who is armed by Hamas and carrying a AK47 a “child”? We have asked this several times, but you keep dodging the question. Just like the question I posed you- if - as you have previously claimed- there are no Journalists in Gaza, how do they get killed?
Yes, and read the WHOLE segment, not taken out of context-
Note that “That is a terrible solution- what is your real solution?”
As i have posted several times- IMHO this is the only real solution-
But I am willing to listen to others- but no one has yet provided one, just rhetoric and lists of sometimes doubtful atrocities- and only those atrocities committed by the IDF. Never atrocities committed by Hamas. Weird huh? Its like terrorist atrocities are somehow okay.
Everyone agrees that Hamas atrocities are bad. What’s the point of discussing something no one disagrees with?
The disagreement is about how bad the IDF and settlers and Israeli government is.
On children - IMO, children shouldn’t be killed. Even if the IDF claims they are terrorist fighters, IMO they still shouldn’t be killed. For one thing, I don’t remotely trust the IDF - they’re as dishonest as Hamas. For another, I don’t believe in the legitimacy of this war - Israel and the IDF are accomplishing nothing in Gaza but making things worse for everyone but the extremists. Killing Gazan children helps Hamas, helps settlers, helps extremists, but hurts peaceful civilians. No matter how they’re described. When the war is strengthening Hamas and other extremists, why keep fighting it? Why kill so many and accomplish nothing at all but helping the worst of the worst?
I didnt mention an IDF claim. I posited a hypothetical-
We know that Hamas- and other similar terrorist groups routinely recruit young men under 18.
And is a 20 yo a “child”? because I have seen some stats on “child deaths” counting everyone under 21.
You do know Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, starting off by firing about 5000 rockets into Israel, not aimed at Military targets. The attack which followed killed 800 Civilians, many children, and took 251 hostages, who were abused. Rapes occurred. This isnt some Israel Propaganda, this is well known.
Okay so no real answer to one question, how about the other?