I’m gonna be the contrarian here for a bit. (Big shock, I know)
I haven’t been hearing the same media chatter that you guys have, because not once have I had the impression that either Flacco or Ryan are treated like elite players. Both are young and both have been justifiably lauded for adjusting quickly to the NFL and not showing quite the learning curve that most rookie QBs show, but no one is discussing any of them in the same breath as Manning, Brady or even Reothlisberger. They are always grouped in that Schaub, Freeman, Romo group of really inconsistent guys with a lot of talent around them.
Also, I think the heat Dunta Robinson is taking goes a little too far. It seemed to me that Dunta made a conscious effort to not contact him with his helmet. He pretty clearly launched at Maclin, which I suppose is illegal now, and he definitely failed in his attempt to not go helmet to helmet, but it looked to me like he tried to lead with the shoulder.
The Falcons had like 145 yards total offense in the first three quarters. It’s all Collinsworth wanted to talk about. I don’t think it matters at all, but it is definitely true.
Far be it from me to tell somebody else s/he’s wrong about how good this guy is vs. that guy, ordinarily, but this seem like an oddly specific and weirdly-calibrated-to-fit-Rivers way to knock him. What results are we talking about that Rivers doesn’t have? And who does have them?
Actually, this isn’t true. There were three turnovers that led to 14 points.
Vick fumbled out of bounds going out of bounds near the 4 late in the 2nd quarter. The next play the Falcons busted through the middle for his second fumble, with the lumbering run-back that led to a Matt Ryan TD pass.
The next possession Vick fumbled for the third time, setting up the Falcons in Philly territory. Matt Ryan promptly threw an interception to Nnamdi Asomugha.
The first Eagle possession of the 2nd half had Vick throw the interception to Hayden one yard deep in Eagles territory.
A few random thoughts from the Patriots-Chargers game.
I thought the Chargers actually looked pretty good. It was a competitive game, with a few big/close plays that went against them. They stopped the Pats a few times, and moved the ball very well themselves. That said, the big plays were mainly their own fault (Rivers’ second INT, Tolbert’s fumble, and the goal-line stand), so it’s not like they got ripped off, but neither did they get blown off the field.
After New England’s second touchdown, they kicked off from midfield because of an unsportsmanlike penalty. Why not try an onside kick in that situation, rather than kicking it though for a touchback? You’re only gambling 20 yards of field position against possession of the ball; it seems like it would be worth it even if you’re only successful like 20% of the time.
New England’s first TD looked very much like one of the controversial “going to the ground” calls from last year. I was surprised that it wasn’t reviewed. There was also a non-catch call at the end of the first half that could have been reviewed as well. I don’t know if either of these would have been overturned, just that they were at least close. I’d be interested to know exactly how the review decisions are made.
Also, the thing about all TDs being reviewable makes me wonder if there are situations where it’s strategically best not to score. For example, say a QB fumbles as he begins his throwing motion, and a D lineman returns the fumble. He should maybe run out at the 1 rather than scoring, so that the fumble isn’t automatically reviewed.
And I would argue that he does because part of the criteria is results. You can’t argue with success. Tommy Maddox, Kordell Stewart and Mike Tomczak had the same formula and got nowhere. Ben stepped in as a rookie and won all of his games in the regular season, won the Super Bowl his second and fifth season, and almost did it again last year. Outside of Brady there’s nobody who can claim that kind of success, not even Montana or Bradshaw. And he’s still got a ways to go.
From Wiki:
That’s nothing to sneer at. He’ll never get the yardage the others have because Pittsburgh is at its most basic a running team, but when he’s asked to he gets the job done, and at a consistently high level.
I’ll grant that Rodgers, Brees, Manning, and Brady top the list, but Ben definitely belongs in the top five. As for Rivers, he’s missing a certain something that the others all have, namely a Super Bowl victory. When you have a group of great quarterbacks doing great things for their teams, something has to set them apart, and I respectfully submit that what makes Rivers the odd man out is results. Maybe that’s not his fault, but there it is.
Team “success” does not equal individual “success”. Trent Dilfer is a Super Bowl winning QB. So is Eli Manning. Rex Grossman has been in the Super Bowl. An “elite” QB has to be, well an “elite” QB. It’s not just a quarterback on an elite team.
If you’re going to make results matter, and specifically Super Bowl victories, I think that would also require that the QB in question, you know, actually played well in one of them.
OK, let’s ignore the fact that he’s been in three of them, and further ignore the last-minute drive that he engineered to win Super Bowl XLIII, or the pass (and catch) that won it for them. Good thing Bradshaw, Montana and Aikman had such a great team around them, too, because they contributed absolutely nothing, being average quarterbacks and all.
Stats are only part of what make a player great. Sometimes they’re enough, like with Marino or Tarkenton. But winning puts you over the top, and Ben wins games. Like I said, he’ll never put up the numbers that others will because he’ll never be called on to do that. But he performs at a very high level week in and week out, only occasionally having a horrible game (which every player has on occasion).
Rivers vs. Ben might be the perfect example of why these arguments are unresolvable. I tend to fall on the side of the argument that downplays team results, but I don’t think they should be completely dismissed, either. It does seem wrong that Rivers gets downgraded because Nate Kaeding goes insane, and Ben gets upgraded because Mike Vanderjagt goes insane.
One way to look at it is the trade-value approach. I don’t think either SD or Pitt would want to trade QBs straight up. Put Rivers on the Steelers and they’d be worse, and the same for Ben on SD.
I know Halloween is coming up, but it’s still a bit early to be building all those strawmen.
We agree that stats aren’t the end all be all, but neither are team wins. Simply saying Roethlisberger plays in big games (and not always well, by the way. Or are you forgetting his horrible 35.5 passer rating in the AFC Championship game last year or his mediocre 77.4 in the Super Bowl) means next to nothing. The Steelers can win a lot of games no matter who is QBing. The same can’t be said for the Chargers.
If it makes you feel any better, the difference between Ben and Rivers isn’t that great for you to get all offended. But the huge difference is that the Steelers can win without Ben (remember, they won 3 out of 4 games without him last year), and the Chargers can’t without Rivers.
I’d expect bitching about injuries from the Chiefs, maybe the Eagles, certainly the Rams and Giants, but losing your #3 WR who had negative yardage receiving going into yesterdays game isn’t really grabbing me.
I didn’t see the whole game, but saw one play where the defender had time to pull up after Vick threw, but not only continued into him, he also picked Vick up off the ground and body slammed him. No flag of course.
Contrast to a defender launching into a shoulder-to-midsection tackle (no contact with either QB head or defender helmet) as Rivers was bringing his arm back, letting go of the ball microseconds before impact. That was a roughing the passer penalty.
I really wonder if it was just the random vagueries of refereeing by human beings, or some kind of subconscious “oh, so Vick wants to run around and embarrass defenders some of the time, well then he’s going to pay the price when he stands in the pocket, serves him right getting bodyslammed once in a while.” Or worse, some kind of result of Vick’s, um, ‘natural athleticism’ (as opposed to, you know, the smart QBs like Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger)