"Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@even_sven

How hard can it be to just admit that if people aren’t wanting to date you, it’s you who is the common factor?

It can be pretty difficult to accept, especially when the problem is some fundamental aspect of your personality rather than something easily addressed like hygiene or fashion sense. And when all the feedback you get is either non-informative or is critical of the wrong things, it is very difficult to even figure out what you are doing wrong and how (or whether) you can change it. As a culture, we’re conditioned not to admit fault even when culpability is clear, much less when it may be subject to interpretation.

Most men either learn the appropriate modes of general social interaction early through strong family and social bonds and intuitively apply the appropriate modifications of those modes to dating and romantic relationships, or they don’t learn them at all. And unfortunately there is very little practical guidance for how to pick up those skills later in life, especially if you have a social handicap such as not being able to read emotional cues. As dysfunctional as the self-proclaimed “seduction” and “pick-up artist” community is, it is at least trying to present some kind of education on adult socialization, which is what their clients need. Unfortunately, the “coaches” who practice this trade are largely limited to teaching initial pickup techniques that largely work by plying on the insecurities of the women they are targeting rather than the large scope of social interaction in general or even the gamut of skills necessary to build and maintain an actual relationship or deal effectively with the inevitable conflicts and demands that being in a long-term romantic relationship entails.

Whether you are a self-described but passive-aggressive “nice guy” or just a “decent, albeit (socially) clueless man”, it can be difficult to get past the barrier of not meeting the requisite set of expectations that the vast majority of women (quite reasonably) have and getting far enough into dating to even learn how to stop doing things wrong. The same is true, I expect, for physically unattractive women, except they have the additional hindrance that their “deficiencies” aren’t even superficially concealable with bluster and bravado.

For the o.p.'s sons, dealing with the social anxiety (and letting them know that they are loved and respected regardless of how the world at large treats them) is probably the best he can do. Encouraging them to develop interests in some kind of outgoing activity with social opportunities to interact with women of comparable age, e.g. team sports, volunteering, debate/mock trial/Model UN/whatever, will maximize their chances to come into contact with women on an extended basis so they can get past the initial social awkwardness and display confidence in an activity.

Stranger

[P-man]

Oldest S will be going off to college soon. My hope is that his experience is more like my wife’s. She had plenty of relationships and was never wanting for dates. Much like a general manager who takes a flyer on a flawed but talented player, she took a chance that paid great dividends.

[j666]

@P-man

Oldest S will be going off to college soon. My hope is that his experience is more like my wife’s. She had plenty of relationships and was never wanting for dates. Much like a general manager who takes a flyer on a flawed but talented player, she took a chance that paid great dividends.

How does he get along with other young men? If he gets along well with men, he just has to get past the sexual tension to get along with young women, which, now that I think, would be very sad, because that tension was fun.

[P-man]

@j666

How does he get along with other young men? If he gets along well with men, he just has to get past the sexual tension to get along with young women, which, now that I think, would be very sad, because that tension was fun.

He has a group of friends he gets along well with. There are also girls he’s been friends with since he was very young. His younger brother has fewer friends, though. He seems to be more comfortable talking to adults (same as his dad). Both have spoken and performed in front of large groups (again, like their dad).

[j666]

What are we worried about again? The kids have friends, and are well spoken, and have two loving parents.

[Velocity]

This thread is turning out to be one of the best discussions on this topic so far.

A few more random thoughts:

1. Many people who ought to blame themselves don’t, and many people who shouldn’t blame themselves, do.

2. The whole complaint of “friend-zoning” doesn’t take math into account. If a particular man or women is pursued by many suitors, he or she can only accept one. The rest, mathematically, have to be friend-zoned or rejected.

3. It’s hard for people unsuccessful in dating to get good advice, because the singles who offer such advice themselves often haven’t figured things out themselves, and the married folks can’t relate to that “I’m still single and undesirable” urgency anymore, so the married folks issue lackadaisical, nonchalant platitudes like “Oh, just keep being yourself, someday you will find Mr./Ms. Right.”

4. Nice guys need to come up with a better slogan than “Nice guys finish last.” Even if it’s true, it sounds very passive-aggressive.

[Memnon]

I think this is pretty well put except that I’d frame your first point in slightly stronger terms even, in that politeness, willingness to commit, generosity, kindness, unselfishness, loyalty are held out to be desirable traits specifically for romantic situations. And to a significant majority of women those just end up making you a bland, uninteresting sort of bloke.

I can attest to the truth of this. When I was in my late teens I began exhibiting the early signs of bipolar disorder and OCD. I started going to the gym a lot, because it made me feel better. And I mean, a lot. Six days a week, 3-4 hours a day. End result: I got pretty jacked. Then I went to Uni, still undiagnosed, and started, for the first time, smoking a lot of weed. Needless to say, this did nothing for my psychological well-being.

Anyway, I got laid like a fucking champion, despite the fact that I was horrible to be around because (a) I looked good, and (b) I gave off a ‘don’t-give-a-fuck’ vibe, pretty much wherever I went. After a few months, however, things came to a head and I was properly diagnosed and took a break from studies to get treatment. I’m glad to say the treatment was pretty successful, and I’m a much nicer and more mellow bloke today, but I stopped hitting the gym.

I have literally swapped a good body for a good personality, and, while I wouldn’t go back for anything, I have much less success with women these days.

Honestly, men, if you want to be successful with women, forget about being nice, forget about self-improvement, HIT THE FUCKING GYM. Hit it hard, hit it often, and eat to build muscle. That will take you, literally, about 90% of the way there.

[Memnon]

=skylyn12]
I have found that “Nice Guys” are often “friend zoned” because they attempt to date women who are way out of their league. They are blind to the fact that they’re not a 10 (and/or that being ‘nice’ doesn’t make a 4 a 10).

While there are exceptions, people tend to be attracted to people who are similar to themselves (in looks, etc.). So the somewhat homely ‘Nice’ guy who spends his time studying Manga is not likely to be a good fit for the collegiate volleyball player who looks like an ad for Nike. But they (nice guys) don’t seem to get that.

This is true, but the problem here is largely with women. The fact is, most women simply do not know what a physically attractive man looks like unless it’s really obvious. That may seem like a terribly condescending, “mansplainy” thing to say but, as with most things that are “mansplainy”, in my experience, it happens to be true:

OK Cupid: Women rate 80% of men as ‘less attractive than average’.

So perfectly respectable looking guys can, and do, fall at the first hurdle because women, as a group, have a tendency to wildly misjudge how attractive they are in relation to what they think a handsome guy is supposed to look like.

So yeah, guys, make it obvious. Hit the gym. Put on some muscle. Repeat as needed.

[kiz]

@Velocity

I think it’s more that

1. Abusers are attracted to vulnerability,
2. Women of that personality type can be drawn to unhealthy men because of a “fixer-healer” mentality;
3. People often default to what is familiar, so a pattern of abusive relationships happens and forms - “its abusive but it’s familiar;”
4. The whole opposites-attract thing;
5. Being with an abusive partner can sometimes actually feed the abused partner’s sense of virtue - “I am a selfless, patient, and gracious man/woman, and definitely the morally better partner in this relationship.”

This, especially #2, and #5. There is a certain “rush”, especially the younger you are, in being the fixer/healer and/or the morally better partner, especially re the “Nobody understands him/her except me!”

I was that woman once.

[even_sven]

@Tithonus

This is true, but the problem here is largely with women. The fact is, most women simply do not know what a physically attractive man looks like unless it’s really obvious.

Its women’s fault if you can’t get laid because they don’t understand how attractive you are? Well, that’s certainly a new one.

I do think you are right that men underestimate how important looks are. Someone told men at some point that women aren’t shallow like that. But it’s just not true. Women would also like to be attracted to their partners.

But I think men are more likely to be looking at attractive women as a broad group, while women are more likely to have a “type”. I know I do. If you aren’t my “type”, it doesn’t really matter if you are Brad Pitt, I’m probably not going to find you attractive (indeed, I don’t fine Brad Pitt attractive at all).

[Melbourne]

@jz78817

does this actually ever work?

Yes

early in my career when people at work were still wasting time trying to see if I could be put on a management track, they sent me to a few of these things. all I could do was fumble through them nervously and count the seconds until I could get the hell out and go home.

there’s no class that can turn a shy introvert into an attention-seeker.

I’m not a shy introvert. I didn’t talk with people much. Since I didn’t know how to talk with people, being taught how to talk with people helped me.

It’s not everything. Nothing ever is.

[Melbourne]

@Velocity

4. Nice guys need to come up with a better slogan than “Nice guys finish last.” Even if it’s true, it sounds very passive-aggressive.

David Wong, in the classic www.cracked.com article:Six harsh truths that will make you a better person

Well guess what, there’s another guy in her life who also knows how to do that, and he can play the guitar. Saying that you’re a nice guy is like a restaurant whose only selling point is that the food doesn’t make you sick.

[Gyrate]

@Velocity

I’ve come across numerous individual stories of this sort: *“I lacked confidence for the longest time, then I finally met someone who loved me too, and now years later I’m far more confident than before.” *

In my case it’s “I lacked confidence for the longest time, then I finally met someone who loved me too, and now years later I’m still a fucking neurotic mess but it’s okay because she loves me anyway.”

[Acsenray]

@Melbourne

David Wong, in the classic www.cracked.com article:Six harsh truths that will make you a better person

That’s an excellent article that I’ve read at least twice over the last few years and I wish I had been able to learn that kind of lesson in my youth.

As Wong says, you have to be able to bring something to the table, whether it’s physical looks, an engaging personality, fashion sense, an artistic skill, (the ability to earn) lots of money, something that makes you interesting and attractive.

The Tao of Steve also makes this point (albeit in the context of the rules of “seduction”)—but the point is that it says you must “be excellent” at something in order to attract a woman’s (let’s just call it “woman” for the sake of discussion) admiration. The character in question is excellent at teaching/caring for five-year-old children, if I recall correctly.

[Sam_Lowry]

@Tithonus

This is true, but the problem here is largely with women. The fact is, most women simply do not know what a physically attractive man looks like unless it’s really obvious. That may seem like a terribly condescending, “mansplainy” thing to say but, as with most things that are “mansplainy”, in my experience, it happens to be true:

OK Cupid: Women rate 80% of men as ‘less attractive than average’.

So perfectly respectable looking guys can, and do, fall at the first hurdle because women, as a group, have a tendency to wildly misjudge how attractive they are in relation to what they think a handsome guy is supposed to look like.

So yeah, guys, make it obvious. Hit the gym. Put on some muscle. Repeat as needed.

That looks true that women do rate men more harshly on where they fall in the spectrum of attractiveness. But from that exact same graph that you linked to, it shows that women message those guys, with the top of the bell curve actually below the medium. While men do rate women about along the average bell curve, but tend to message women much higher in attractiveness.

So if I knew nothing else about dating, just from that link I would conclude that men don’t really need to worry about their own attractiveness, because women might message them even if those women think they those men are below average in attractiveness. But women need to do whatever they can to look more attractive in order to get messages.

[Shodan]

@Velocity

It’s hard for people unsuccessful in dating to get good advice, because the singles who offer such advice themselves often haven’t figured things out themselves, and the married folks can’t relate to that “I’m still single and undesirable” urgency anymore, so the married folks issue lackadaisical, nonchalant platitudes like “Oh, just keep being yourself, someday you will find Mr./Ms. Right.”

I don’t know about other married people, and I haven’t dated since sometime in the Jurassic period, but I would never tell someone who wanted dates/to get laid/to get married to ‘just be yourself and eventually someone will come along for you’.

@Martin Luther

God feeds the birds of the air, but He doesn’t throw the food into their nests.

There’s lot of fish in the ocean, but you have to cast the net.

You gotta do the basics. Take a shower, brush your teeth, wash your hair. Your clothes don’t have to be expensive, but they have to be clean.

Then hit on everything that moves. OK, maybe that is overstated, but if you find someone reasonably attractive, you ask them out. If they say No, you ask again, after a decent interval. “Decent interval” can’t be defined clearly, except to say that if you ask and get shot down, then have ten minutes of reasonable conversation, you can ask again. Always ask twice, never ask three times. If she is interested after the second time, she will ask you.

@Robert Heinlein

There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe.

Play the percentages. Maybe one in twenty women will go out with you. Good - that means all you need to do is ask twenty women, and you are in like Flynn.

And the more first dates you go out on, the better at it you get. Develop a repetoire of four or five topics you like to talk about, and find out which ones she is interested in. Figure out what gets her talking. If nothing does, fine - enjoy the movie or whatever, and drop her and go on to the next. If something does, ask her out again.

Part of the problem with “nice guys” is that they pay too much attention to women who don’t want to go out with them. If she does, great. If she doesn’t, too bad. But don’t waste time letting her tell you why she doesn’t want to. Because even if you can fix whatever it was, she isn’t going to go out with you.

My $.02 worth, and cheap at half the price.

Regards,
Shodan

[JR_Brown]

@Tithonus

This is true, but the problem here is largely with women. The fact is, most women simply do not know what a physically attractive man looks like unless it’s really obvious. […] So yeah, guys, make it obvious. Hit the gym. Put on some muscle. Repeat as needed.

What even sven said. Women are much more variable in what they find attractive than men are (including gay men, interestingly enough). If you go live in the gym 24/7 and turn yourself into a musclehead, some women will find that super hot, and some women will find it a total turnoff. Personally, I can’t stand excessive muscles, and I will tell you I have lots of company in that.

TL,DR: Whatever you look like, there is someone out there who likes that type. But the flipside is that there are also a lot who don’t, even if you look like Channing Tatum (who is roadkill, AFAIC).

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@JR_Brown

What even sven said. Women are much more variable in what they find attractive than men are (including gay men, interestingly enough). If you go live in the gym 24/7 and turn yourself into a musclehead, some women will find that super hot, and some women will find it a total turnoff. Personally, I can’t stand excessive muscles, and I will tell you I have lots of company in that.

Not that it matters to your point, but I suspect the difference is cultural influences.

Society pays an enormous amount of attention to women’s appearance and attractiveness. As a result of this, the dominant perspective on what’s considered attactive in a woman is the subject of tremendous focus, and thereby crowds out other perspectives. Meaning, IOW, that both men and women are conditioned to think X is the epitome of attractiveness in a woman by virtue of it being constantly held up as that.

My contrast, men’s appearance is not the subject of nearly as much focus, and this means there is less societal pressure in favor of one particular look.

TL,DR: Whatever you look like, there is someone out there who likes that type. But the flipside is that there are also a lot who don’t, even if you look like Channing Tatum (who is roadkill, AFAIC).

I’m with Shodan on this - there are limits. Some things are always worthwhile, e.g. being clean, neat, in reasonably good condition etc.

[iljitsch]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Society pays an enormous amount of attention to women’s appearance and attractiveness. As a result of this, the dominant perspective on what’s considered attactive in a woman is the subject of tremendous focus, and thereby crowds out other perspectives. Meaning, IOW, that both men and women are conditioned to think X is the epitome of attractiveness in a woman by virtue of it being constantly held up as that.

My contrast, men’s appearance is not the subject of nearly as much focus, and this means there is less societal pressure in favor of one particular look.

Riiight… That’s why men’s fashion is pretty much identical suits while women’s fashion is all over the place.

The way I interpret the OK Cupid statistics is that women tend to give guys that aren’t super gorgeous the chance to grow on them while men tend go for the initial attraction and ignore everything else. As a result, women who want to attract men have to look good, while for men who want to attract women that’s not the only option.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@iljitsch

Riiight… That’s why men’s fashion is pretty much identical suits while women’s fashion is all over the place.

Sarcasm noted, but that’s pretty much true as stated.

Men’s appearance is not as big of a deal, so men don’t need to stand out in their dress, or to change appearance day-by-day. Look pretty much normal and you’re OK. Women’s appearance is a much bigger deal, so women need to have something different and better than other women, as well as fresh and new compared to what they were wearing yesterday.