This thread alternates between hopeful and really, really depressing.
Yes, this.
It’s also often coupled with “I’m just shy”, which you often hear in threads asking for dating advice. I’m not looking down on such people: I was that person.
Believing that you’re already someone who’d make a good boyfriend, and it’s just the initial stumbling block of initiating relationships that’s the problem, is something that can really hold guys back for a long time.
I agree, but much of this is not obvious to young guys.
It’s not the kind of messages we see in the media and most guys do not have female friends willing to confide that kind of information.
Also WRT putting women on a pedestal, your creepy could be someone else’s charming. Respecting women as humans also means respecting that their preferences differ.
True. I could not agree more that the notion that social skills are innate is damaging.
But I think sometimes the debate, as in this thread, reaches for too much depth.
For most guys I see, the “problem” isn’t some sort of deep-rooted misogyny or other personal flaw or moral failing, but lack of a few reasonably simple skills, and ability to really observe someone else’s body-language … all of which can be learned.
That isn’t to say lots of guys aren’t misogynistic or have personal failings, just that it doesn’t necessarily correlate all that well with dating success or failure - which is kinda what triggers the whole “nice guy” lament in the first place (as in “why does that jerk have dating success when I do not? I’m nice”. The answer, of course, is that guy - whatever his flaws - is some combo of hot and good at flirting and appears to offer women a fun time, and for whatever reason, the lamenter isn’t and doesn’t).
The reason is that people of any sex or gender tend to be superficial - at first attraction. How could it be otherwise? When you first meet someone, all you have to go on is the superficial. Depth comes later.
Someone upthread mentioned that women are interested in high-quality mates that will produce high-quality offspring. That, too, is reaching for too much depth. In my experience, women, like men, are interested in having a good time when they first meet someone. The problem with “nice guys” of the type making the typical lament tends to be that, for whatever reasons, they don’t appear to offer a good time.
On #1, serious response: No dude. I think you’re being selective on what you’re noticing. Kind of like when you buy a new car and then start noticing that same make and model all over the place. There have been plenty of posts made by men in this very forum about relationship problems. (Although maybe the problem is that dudes who can’t get laid feel the need to start entire threads about it, over and over and over…)
On #1, less than serious response: That’s because every guy in a relationship with a woman has the same problems! There’s no reason to air those grievances, we already know! This is why you can go up to practically any dude, sigh, say “Chicks, man.” and gets nods of agreement and sympathy. (Just like any woman can go up to another, roll her eyes, say “Men.” and get the same thing.)
This is part of the problem with Nice Guys. The don’t take the subtle, not so subtle or sledgehammer hints. Most women sincerely don’t want to hurt a guys feelings, or humiliate them. So you try subtle. And have to ratchet up to unpleasant. Normal guys get it more easily. It is the not giving a damn about my opinion that makes it creepy and scary. We don’t mind the attempt.
This, basically.
To illustrate what I mentioned upthread, no amount of subtlety worked on Nice Guy College Boyfriend when I attempted to break up with him, so I ratcheted it up little by little until I was literally screaming in the middle of campus that I wanted to end the relationship, stop bothering me, etc., etc. Since we lived in the same dorm, things became uncomfortable enough that I temporarily moved in with an off-campus friend. When NGCB discovered this, he started stalking my friend’s building. A mutual male friend of ours finally threatened NGCB with a restraining order on my behalf. That did the trick…until the phone calls started.
Really, it’d make a great soap opera plot now, but at the time I was scared and bewildered because he never gave any indication of this behavior while we were together. Finding/marrying the girl who looked similar to me was downright creepy. AFAIK they’re still married.
Damn, so I’m a Nice Guy™? 
I didn’t think I was, but I don’t know how to read subtleties at all, so I guess I can’t be normal.
This is a topic for another thread, but things would be much, much simpler and better for everyone if women rejected men outright and flatly rather than reject indirectly like, “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m busy this weekend, I can’t,” and hoping he gets the hint - which, with certain men who read things literally, is asking for continued drama - “She can’t because she’s busy? I will wait and ask again when she’s not busy.” That sets up a long drawn-out cycle of frustration and exasperation for both parties involved. Just nip it in the bud.
That’s a great idea in theory; the problem is that most guys would (apparently) prefer to be fed a transparent excuse that allows them to save face, rather than hear, “Thanks, but I’m not interested.” In my experience, that’s the response that’s guaranteed to get continued drama, along the lines of either “What? Why NOT? Is it something I can change?” or “Oh, so you think you’re too good for me, you whore?” I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had to be “busy” more than twice before the guy stopped calling. I’d need to borrow about five or six more hands to count the number of times I’ve politely declined and been cussed out (and occasionally, physically threatened) and/or had to perform a two-hour rendition of the one-woman play, “It’s Not You, It’s Me”.
Yikes.
There’s a different category of guy, though: the guy expecting to be rejected, hypersensitive to rejection but not at all to attraction. It’s probably connected to a doubt that women are interested in sex, and it’s a messed up attitude.
Yeah, the amount of "no"s that have gone over poorly with a persistent guy as opposed to the amount of “sorry, I’m busy” that have been accepted without drama, leads me to believe that many guys can’t handle direct refusals. They’ll quietly take an “I’m busy” with the thought that maybe next weekend things will turn out (I presume, even if they never actually do), but a straight-up “no thanks” will trip their rejection alarm.
IMHO, people who get rejected should put themselves in the shoes of the people doing the rejecting, and people who reject others should put themselves in the shoes of the people being rejected.
And if you do simply say "No thank you, the Nice Guy wants to know why, and whines and cajoles. Women, in general, shy away from confrontation. We are supposed to be nice, after all. And most of us have had experience with the creepy, scary, guy. Either directly, or with family or friends. For the guy it is just a numbers game, for women it can be dangerous or even deadly.
One problem with nice men and women is that they tend to think more simpler terms, and have simpler minds, than not-nice people.
This makes them fall into the trap of doing what’s *intuitive, but counterproductive, *rather than what’s counterintuitive, but effective.
Many things in life require a counterintuitive action.
In the same way that a panicking pilot may pull the airplane nose up in an aerodynamic stall (because it feels like the naturally logical thing to do, even though it will worsen the situation,) a nice man or woman will begin to pursue a person whom they are attracted to, and show interest, even though this may come across as clingy and backfire.
In the same way that a panicking cook may pour water on a burning grease fire in a pot (because it feels like the naturally logical thing to do, even though it will worsen the situation,) a nice man or woman will pursue their love interest even more doggedly, thinking that *more *love/gestures of affection are the solution, not less.
In the same way that a panicking scuba diver may rush to the surface in an emergency (because it feels like the naturally logical thing to do, even though it will worsen the situation,) a nice man or woman will try to be more available, more attentive, hoping again that more effort can get their love interest to reciprocate.
Most people are nice. Most people are not helpless at relationships.
The golden rule doesn’t always work well, and this is especially true in the dating world. If I were asking someone out, I would much rather someone reject me obliquely than explicitly. I don’t need a whole lot of specifics spelled out before I catch a hint, and it would annoy me if someone thought otherwise.
Indeed. And oblique rejection might allow both parties to act like the whole interaction didn’t happen or wasn’t important. It can be useful to try to get potentially embarrassing messages across indirectly.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, but men who feel entitled to a clear-cut rejection need to consider whether this has something to do with them being rejected in the first place. I’m not saying they are bad guys (or rather Nice Guys), but knowing this might help them identify what exactly the problem is so they can create some workarounds.
When women are looking mates, communication is usually up there in their list of criteria. Communication is the ability to give and receive information effectively and efficiently. Implicit communication is usually more efficient than explicit, because sometimes all it requires is non-verbal gestures. Speaking requires more effort than a smile or the lack thereof.
So if your choice comes down two men: one who can understand what you mean based on minimal input versus one who needs a lot spelled out, who is going to have an easier shot at getting a date? Obviously it will be the former, all other things being equal.
If were a guy with a weakness in this area, I would create some rules for myself. If I ask someone out and their response is anything other than “yes”, then I would understand this to be a rejection and keep it moving. Perhaps if I didn’t want the door to close completely, I would encourage them to let me know when are they free or whatever, but what I wouldn’t do is keep on asking them.
But the nice but clueless guy will probably take “sorry, I’m busy” to be a complete and total rejection for all time and never go near the woman again. The inability to read signals goes that way, as well. If a woman is interested but actually busy, she needs to be the one to suggest an alternative.
I whole heartedly agree with this, but I don’t see a whole lot of women complaining when men misinterpret “I’m busy” as a rejection. Usually an interested woman who is in fact very busy will say a lot more than “I’m busy”. Like, they will propose another day that works.
I think focusing on rejection is missing the forest for the trees though. What the nice but clueless should be most concerned about is finding someone who is interested (or potentially interested) in them. That isn’t easy if you’re shy, reserved, and socially awkward; people aren’t going to find you if you’re holed up in your house every weekend. But its possible if you make a concerted effort now and again to step outside your comfort zone.