ROTFLMAO!
First, you get the remote control, then you get the women, then you get the power!
I read your post. As you may notice, I quoted your statement about there being some good Christians.
Your personal experiences are not enough of a cite for me - you state that (essentially) 90% of all Christians in the USA are “blind, backwater, stupid, and sanctimonious idiots”. When you make blanket statements like that, don’t be astonished when someone asks for a cite.
There are a lot of people in the USA, there are a lot of Christians in the USA. You don’t need a majority of them to be able to do a lot of damage. All you need is a minority that is obnoxious, fanatic, and organized. So, I don’t buy your percentage of 90%, sorry. The percentage may be 10% 20%, 30%, or even higher, but I am not buying a percentage 90% without subtantial cites. Your personal experiences notwithstanding.
yosemitebabe:
Here’s Reason #135, 984 why intolerant [sup]*[/sup]Christians in America piss me off.
[sup]*[/sup] If you are kind, generous, open-minded lover of Jesus, then I’m not talking about you… Read another thread; you’ll be happier.
I’m told there’s a nice Futurama discussion in Cafe Society.
Sigh This is what I get for simply asking for a cite? I don’t think I need you to advise me on which threads I should read, or which threads I would be “happier” reading. Thanks anyway, though.
There has never been any doubt that there is plenty for all in the gay community to be royally pissed about (in regards to sanctimonious Christians). You don’t need to convince me of that.
However, I am not obligated to take your perceptions or opinions as fact, or as a cite, sorry. You are entitled to your opinion (certainly) that 90% of all Christians in the USA are idiots (among many other negative things). And I am entitled to not believe you, and to not accept that your personal opinions and perceptions are an equivalent to a substantial cite. They are not.
Man, it sounds like you have been in my office recently!:rolleyes: I have 2 co-workers (in an office of 4 people total) who think/speak/act that exact way. Co-worker #1’s favorite line is:" Well, they’ll answer to God for that!" So much for not being judgmental.
On a radio talk show in Charlotte many years back, I heard a caller scream out at Madalyn Murray O’Hare’s son, “You’ll know the luv o’ Jesus when you’re burnin’ in Hell!”
If it weren’t so sad, it’d be funny.
I never said they were. The Web, sadly, doesn’t have links to a poll that asks, “Are you a Christian? Do you consider yourself a sanctimonious phony?”
( ) Yes
( ) No
Here’s a story for you. Not a cite, just something I witnessed not too long ago.
On a breezy Sunday afternoon when the spring warmth wwas just beginning, I was sitting on a bench by the fountain in Dupont Circle (the gay ghetto here in the DC area).
A man and his two followers walk up, set up a lectern, and the man starts preaching through a bullhorn: “In Romans, God condemns faggots! Man sleeping with a man is an abomination, saith the Lord.”
Just when he was getting good and warmed up, the cops come over and ask to see his permit.
Cop: Sir, your permit allows you to speak, but not to use a bullhorn.
Jerk: I got a right to preach the Goispel here. I got a permit.
Cop: Yes, sir, but your permit only allows you to speak here; you can’t use a bullhorn.
Jerk: Just because I’m a black man, you pulling this shit? I got a right to be here!
Finally, he agrees to not use the bullhorn. so he starts walking around the circle, getting in people’s faces, using words like “faggot.” The corwd of people are amazingly tolerant, and only a few guys tell him to shut up. This just eggs him on even louder.
I go over to one of his followers, and say, “Doesn’t the Gospel say 'Judge not lest ye be judged? How does this uplift Jesus?”
The follower says, “I ain’t gonna listen to that.”
So I walk away and have a cup of Lapsang Souchong over at Teaism.
So no, I have no cites, no hard data, no statistics to offer you. Just one incident from many over a lifetime of seeing hate in the name of Jesus.
Does this count as a cite?
The Southern Baptists: In 1987 the Southern Baptist Convention condemned homosexuality as a manifestation of a depraved nature and a perversion of divine standards. They also linked homosexuality to a general problem with moral decline in modern society.
The RCC: The Roman Catholic Church has consistently condemned all homosexual “activity” as being sinful. It does however distinguish between homosexual orientation, which it considers morally neutral, and homosexual behavior, which it considers to be sinful.
The United Methodists: In 1972 the church stated that homosexuality was incompatible with Christian teaching, but supported the civil rights of gays. In general this characterized the Methodist position in succeeding years, and was formally reaffirmed in 1992. Church policy states that gay ministers could be banned. They do not perform same-sex union ceremonies.
Assemblies of God: Homosexuality is both a sin against God and mankind. It runs contrary to the divine plan, purpose, and will of God who created us in His image (Genesis 1:27) and redeemed us so that this image, marred because of sin, might be renewed (Colossians 3:10). Most fundamentally, homosexuality is sin because it perverts the created order of human sexuality, the heterosexual fulfillment of both man and woman (1 Corinthians 7:2-5). In creating the first man and woman, God ultimately established the family consisting of a father, a mother, and eventually children. Society is founded on this social unit which propagates the human race. In total contrast, the lifestyle and practice of homosexual couples establish a social unit that thwarts that process and the creative purposes of God for humanity
I think, but could be mistaken, that these four are the largest sects and make up the majority of Christians in the USA. And all of these sects hold negative views of homosexuality, especially if we homos “practice” it. All of these believe we must change who we are to receive God’s grace. Is that enough or do you need more concrete examples?
Hate in the name of Jesus is a contradiction. In the scenario you described, you, and not the man who hates homosexuals, operated in the name of Jesus.
“In that day, many will call upon me, saying ‘Lord, did we not do many works in your name?’ And I will say, ‘Get away from me, you evil doers. I never knew you.’” — Jesus
Gobear, I never thought I’d be a Christian apologist, but does it occur to you that the nice Christians who don’t yell at you – well, they’re not yelling at you, so you don’t notice them?
Consider that upwards of 90% of Americans self-identify as Christians (according to a Gallup poll I read some years ago; I don’t have the reference here). How many folks that you meet every day rise to the level of obnoxiousness you just described?
If you meet, say, 100 people a day in various places (in line at McDonalds, coming into your office, etc.), and only one a month screams “faggot” at you, then why suggest that the faggotyeller is a typical Christian?
Sure, plenty of Christians are flaming assholes (Daniel pauses to contemplate the image). But theyr’e the ones you notice. And plenty more – the ones you don’t notice – are quiet, decent folk.
Daniel
Fully 1/3 of the delegates to the United Methodist Church General Conference of 2000 voted IN FAVOR of ordaining homosexual ministers and allowing same-sex unions to be performed and AGAINST the ruling that homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teachings. The meeting became so heated with discussion that the police were called and two bishops were arrested.
Official stance of church does not necessarily equal beliefs of every clergy or lay member.
The pastor of my hometown church has performed a same-sex union ceremony. It is not official under the auspices of the church, but she’s not going to be fired for doing it, either.
Just FYI.
yosemitebabe, please tell me you agree that, if the OP’s interpretation of “No Jesus, No Peace” is correct, the phrase is something you find equally abhorrent? gobear’s broad brush aside, there are certainly “Christians” who are just as bad as people think they are, but that doesn’t mean they *all[/] are.
Esprix
I thought it was George Bush who said that. Frickin’ plaigarist.
What Daniel said (thanks Daniel). There are plenty of quiet, unobtrusive Christians out there. I wouldn’t be surprised if many a Christian person has been kind, gentle and caring, but because they didn’t identify themselves as Christian to you, you never knew that about them.
And of course, we all know for certain that each and every member of these sects is 100% behind such beliefs. Because, you know, never, never can a person belong (or self-identify) themselves with a particular church unless they are all in 100% complete agreement with every single detail of what the church teaches. They all share one brain, you know. Once you are baptised, you forever give up the right to think for yourself, or to have any unique opinions.
And since this is how it happens, no Catholic has ever practiced birth control. That’s right! No Catholic, ever, has used birth control. Because once you identify yourself as belonging to a particular church, you NEVER deviate from ANYTHING they teach. Yeah. That’s the ticket.
Esprix: Regarding the OP: Sure, I agree - it’s too pithy and lame of a statement. Such sanctimonious clap-trap is irritating, to say the least. I always cringe when I see such stuff on bumper stickers, or t-shirts, or whatever. (Which is why I refuse to have anything religiously-related displayed on my car, and why I refuse to wear such t-shirts. Yikes.)
I agree that there are a certain amount of Christians are plenty bad. You’ll never find me claiming otherwise. I just don’t buy that 90% of them are bad (which is the percentage gobear gives).
The vast majority of Christians I grew up with were loving, warm caring people, with only a few assholes. It’s not that the majority are assholes. Vice versa.
BUT…it is the assholes you remember, so it just seems that there are more of them.
In a Gallup poll taken in around 1994, 98% of Americans polled said that they wouldn’t vote for an atheist Presidential candidate no matter who the person was.
Haj
OK, fine! Then 98% of all Americans are assholes!
Glad we got that settled. :rolleyes:
I’m confused, so since the things Jesus taught us were not really interesting or special, they shouldn’t be considered…teachings? Or worthy of study? please.
And you’re right, they are nothing special…my god, they’re so basic it’s ridiculous. Strangely, not a lot of people can get a hold on that ‘love your neighbor’ thing.
I read your other posts and your evidence for this amazing stat was due to personal experience and anecdotes. Certainly then, you’ll take my anecdotal evidence to the contrary. I attended for 22 years (then moved to Chicago), an evangelical non-denominational christian church filled with people of every christian faith and had a membership well over 750. For Sunday School we studied DIFFERENT FAITHS. We had a wonderful GAY MAN who ran a DANCE troupe within the church. We are open minded, college educated, energetic people focused on loving the world and spreading the love that we’ve found in Jesus.
My uncle was in Vietnam, was an coke and pcp addict, and then became a Baptist minister here in Chicago. He is a blast. Comforting, understanding, open minded, and while he may be opposed to Christianity, he does not promote the “God Hates Fags” message, nor does he condemn them to hell. LOVE THE SINNER, HATE THE SIN. I am not a Baptist, by a long stretch, but I think he’s a good example.
Also, one of my best friends in the world, and one of the finest, strongest, most faith driven Christians I’ve ever known is a Gay Man who grew up in a christian church.
I hope these anecdotes carry as much weight as yours does.
j
The guy in the park is just an extreme example, saying what other people think. I have seen too many Letters to the Editor, had too many people (including my devoutly fundamentalist sister)tell me I’m going to Hell.
Is this an instance of a Hasty Generalization? Possibly. Maybe there’s a great well of Christian love and tolerance out there. After all, everybody here says that Christians are tolerant, loving people. Even Esprix says I paint with a broad brush.
I get genuinely steamed when the theists keep telling me that I have hallucinated all the crap that I’ve seen.
gobear,
where did any of us say you’ve hallucinated anything? I think I and perhaps yosemite are suggesting that your 10 to 1 ratio for tolerant Christians is a bit over the top.
Just like I think the OP translated a four word phrase that looks cute on a marquee into some broad, intolerant, backwater idiot christian doctrine that every christian falls for.
No problem. I still love both of you… 