Moreover, I wonder why you don’t give me a “God Loves You,” or “Look at Jesus, not people.” Instead, you react like a wounded Trekkie, angry that I blasphemed Spock. Just another club, not an agency of supernatural grace, at all.
No one’s claiming that you hallucinated the crap you’ve seen. Please copy and paste any statements here where any of us questioned your personal experiences. Your experiences are your own, and I don’t doubt any of them. I just doubt that they are evidence that 90% of ALL Christians in the USA are the same way.
And, do you think jarbaby is hallucinating? Her experiences are quite different than your own. I see no reason why your opinions should carry any more weight than hers (or mine, or Guin’s, or anyone elses’).
Bolding mine-jarbaby, you DID mean, opposed to homosexuality, right? Because I don’t see how one can be a Baptist and be opposed to Christianity…
sigh
Jarbaby, I was NOT attacking your faith, just clarifying. Jesus did not come to be a teacher; that wasn’t His mission. He came to atone for the sins of humanity and to restore fallen humanity to full fellowship with God through His resurrection. If you don’t even know what Christianity teaches, how do you presume to instruct others?
No, Jesus’ words aren’t unique. EVERY spiritual leader hands out the “love your neighbor” line: Buddha, Mohammed, the Dalai Lama, Socrates, Guru Nanak. Jesus didn’t come to instruct, but to transform. Jesus was unique in that as the Son of God, He could pay the full fine for the sins of the world and become the bridge form humanity to God.
Sure, you’re all right and Christians are the salt of the earth. The various denominations all welcome gays with open arms. There’s no point in talking with people who don’t listen and don’t care.
For today’s Bible reading, try Luke 6:28-35.
Well, if we accept as a given Sturgeon’s Law - to wit, “90% of everything is crap” - then gobear’s statistic is accurate.
However, to be truly fair we should break Christianity into its smallest common denominator. For this I will choose denomination (It can be argued that Christianity’s SCD is actually individual parishes or individual people, but I don’t want to figure out how many parishes there are, and people stops differentiation unless we want to argue that 90% of a given person is crap).
So, 90% of all Christians within a given denomination are “crap” (cf Sturgeon’s Law, above).
If we posit some, say, 100 separate and distinct denominations (if someone else wants to figure out how many there really are they can feel free. I’m not going to bother), then that means…
um…
can someone better at math than I help me out here with the “real” percentage of Christians who are “crap” as per the posited law?
gobear, I feel your pain. I am the last person you’ll find defending Christianity, as I absolutely cannot tolerate the theology. Despite that (and YMMV), I’m willing to believe that the best of what Christianity teaches can be found in the majority of its members if, for no other reason, I have faith in mankind in general, so I’m willing to give the whole human race the benefit of the doubt. Go watch “The Laramie Project” if you want to see good people (and some of them good Christians and Catholics) doing good things - it does exist. And, although I risk resurrecting it, I once did a rather lengthy thread called “Love the Christian, Hate Christianity” - look it up and see what you think of the discussion.
Esprix
Of course that means that fully 2/3 voted TO KEEP the ruling that homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teachings.
And where’s the groundswell of members trying to change the official stance? As long as that is the official stance, then we can assume that we are not welcome in these demoninations. If they change their stance, perhaps I’ll reconsider my opinions.
Perhaps it time they spoke up. I’ll make the arguement that if you see a bigoted Christian “letter to the editor” or hear another pronouncement from Falwell, then if you disagree, you are obligated to defend your faith and write a counter-arguement. As gobear has mentioned before, we rarely see any real-life effort to confront or contradict the hate message.
GOBEAR, I really wonder how you’d feel if the shoe was on the other foot – if you were dealing with someone who said that their personal experience with gay people was overwhelming negative – bunch of promiscuious, queening nancy-boys, the lot of you! – and then concluded that based only upon their personal experience, the vast majority of gay people are sad little over-sexed stereotypes. How would you feel about that?
With respect, I don’t think it’s up to you to decide what His mission was. For a guy who didn’t come to be a teacher, he spent a heck of a lot of time teaching. And His teachings are all we have left of Him that is in any way concrete. So I don’t think you’re really in a position to tell JAR, or me, or anyone else, what Christianity does or does not teach.
You know I love you but – spare me. Nobody said all Christians are the salt of the earth. Nobody said all denominations welcome gays with open arms. To find yourself confronted with people who (reasonably) object to your incorrect characterization of “the majority” of Christians and to extrapolate from there that no one is listening to you or cares about these issues – it’s unfair. And it’s unworthy of you.
I am a Methodist. I am aware of my church’s stance on a national level regarding homosexuality. I am aware that it remains, essentially, “love the sinner, hate the sin.” But that does not mean that every single Methodist agrees with that party line. In fact, a huge majority (over a third) do not. Nor does it mean that every single congregation adheres to that party line. Even for those who do, I don’t think that automatically makes them “blind, backwater, stupid, and sanctimonious idiots.”
As a Christian who’s hung around these Boards for many a moon now, I’m accustomed to seeing this crap from the ignorant and those who just want to start fires. But I continue to be saddened to find that it is still posted by people I respect and who IMO ought to know better. Especially those who have ample reason to resist the urge to stereotype those with whom they happen to disagree.
For today’s Bible reading, try Luke 6:28-35.
Yes. 2/3rd voted to keep the current Church laws. That’s rather obvious, isn’t it? But out of approximately 1,000 ELDERS of the church, the people who are more set in their ways and less pliant than the younger members, more than 300 voted to change. Wait until the current younger members become elders. And remember that the church is not a democracy. Maybe it should be, but it’s not. The elders are appointed by THEIR elders, not elected by the masses.
A question: If you’re not a member of a given group, how can you possibly tell whether there are efforts for change going on within the group? As an outsider you’re one fuck of a lot more likely to hear ONLY the “official” things.
As far as 90% of all Christians being bad, or whatever, why is that limited to Christians? Why are atheists exempt from being 90% stupid fucking assholes?
For the record, I’m agnostic.
HOMEBREW –
I think those were the people being arrested and dragged out of the national convention last year over this very issue. Bet you didn’t hear about that, did you? It’s not as glamorous a news item as, say the latest star who killed his wife.
It is true that the UMC has reaffirmed that it does not consider homosexual practices to be compatible with Christianity. But it is also true that:
– UMC affirms that all persons, regardless of sexuality, are welcome to attend services and participate in church programs.
– UMC affirms its support for the civil and human rights of homosexuals, which it affirms should be extended to them equally with straight people.
– UMC affirms its support of all efforts to support violence and coercion against homosexuals – practices it unequivocally condemns.
– UMC affirms that homosexuals, no less than straight people, are, like all people “of sacred worth.”
– UMC “implores” families and communities not to “reject or condemn” homosexuality in family or friends.
– UMC reiterates a commitment to a “continuing dialogue” on the issue of homosexuality – a nod to the reality that this is a hotly contested issue in which church values and mores are continuing to change and evolve.
If you’re looking for Christians who hate homosexuals, you’re picking on the wrong crowd picking on the Methodists. Moreoever, I am not required to follow the party line of the National Methodist Convention in order to consider myself a Methodist, any more than I must follow every plank in a major political party’s platform in orderr to identify myself with that political party. It is not an all or nothing proposition, no matter how much those of you who want to attack my faith apparently wish it that it was.
Thank you, Jodi. I only brushed upon the subject of people getting arrested and dragged out of the council in my post. And since you’re apparently a practicing member (I haven’t been, personally, in several years, although I go for my parents’ sake on holidays and my name is still on the member roster), you are obviously more able to go into detail on the church’s beliefs than I.
For the record, I am technically still a member of the United Methodist Church. However, I quit attending, and notified the organization at several levels why, because of this issue. I attended one of the more liberal Methodist churches in Dallas when I lived there. I know that the minister there is opposed to the official stance. I know there are other ministers that believe the church is wrong on this issue, including several organized groups such as the Reconciling Congregations. I even recognize that the church supports the Civil Rights of gay people. However, I also know that, as evidenced by the vote, the majority (1/3 does not make a majority. 2/3 does.) believes we are still condemned to Hell because of our natural orientation. “Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin” rings hollow.
You are wrong in saying that I am attacking your faith, Jodi. If you visit the Pizza Parlor, you’ll find that I vigorously defend the idea that homosexuals can be Christian, despite what bigots believe. I am merely pointing out that the official stance of one of the largest demoninations in the US is still against homosexuality, albiet not as vehemently as the Southern Baptists, Mormons or Assemblies of God. As I said before, if that stance changes, I’ll change my opinion.
I defer to Jodi’s post responding to you Gobear, but also I’d like you to refrain from telling me what I do and don’t know about Christ. While he did come to save us and cleanse us of sins by dying on the cross for us, he also spend a CRAPLOAD of time teaching and advising the people of the world. If his only purpose was to die for our sins, perhaps God could have asked Mary and Joseph to offer him up as an infant.
He is the “great counselor”. He taught us how to pray, he taught us through parables, he was a leader by example.
Which is something I try to do, not even 1/56th as successfully as Jesus Christ, but it’s an ongoing process.
God DOES love you gobear. It breaks my heart to see you so hardened against any sort of religion. And believe me, my church would embrace you to the very end.
j
I never claimed that a majority was against the traditional church stance. However I think 1/3 of the coucil is Not Exactly Chump Change, and accompanying that I simply think that it’s not fair to act as though all members of the United Methodist Church are anti-homosexual assholes. I know you never claimed they are, but I wanted to clarify your statement a little so subsequent readers would have 1/3 less of a leg to stand on if they wanted to use the UMC as an example.
HOMEBREW –
No worries, HOMEBREW, I didn’t say you were attacking my faith.
But it is just as legitimate to point out that (a) a significant minority of the church disagrees with this stance; (b) it is a stance reaffirmed only after great anguish and soul-searching in the church as a whole; © it does not reflect statements of inclusiveness of homosexuals in religous or civil life, which the UMC also (though perhaps schizophenically) also advocates; and (d) it is policy that many of us hope in time to change.
It’s an issue you chose to leave the church over. But it’s not one that I would leave over. Personally, I feel the best way to effect change on such issues is from the outside – not by attacking Methodism but by trying to convince others that there is room within the Methodist communiity for all people of faith. I would no more walk out on my church over a disagreement than I would walk out on my mother – and God knows I don’t always agree with her, either.
Just a point of clarification, which another poster touched on:
gobear, about what percentage of human beings in general do you consider to be “blind, backwater, stupid, and sanctimonious idiots?” 'Cause if it’s also 90%, then all gobear is saying is that Christians are no better or worse than anybody else. These days, I’m finding it easier and easier to believe that 90% of the human species is made up of complete rat-bastards.
'scuse me? Scroll down a bit–there’s a Pit thread on that very topic.
The gay thing and my rant are not even comparable. I am not stereotyping Christians, nor am I characterizing Christians based on one or two encounters.
I’m talking about 40 years of unpleasantness from Christians, lots of antigay crap from my own family, about how Jesus hates gays, we’re abominations and so on.
I’m not out to hurt you or disparage your faith. Haven’t I defended you guys against Christian-bashers? Yet when I’m airing feelings of injury and anger over the behavior of Christians towards gays in general and me in particular, it’s brushed aside.
Anyway, I’m not going to post in this thread anymore. I apologize for disturbing you.
Right, you’re not out to disparage peoples’ faith or bash them or anything, you just think that 9 out of 10 of them are mindless redneck bigots. :rolleyes:
“I’m not stereotyping Christians” and then you go on to complain about a stereotype of Christians! Sure, the stereotype is based upon things you have actually, unfortunately, experienced, but that means shit-all. I had bad experiences with every black person I went to high school with. That doesn’t mean I can say with authority that all black people hate whites and bring large knives to school.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with so many assholes who happened to be Christian. I still think you’re wrong in general.
And calling 90% of Christians “idiotic” and “stupid” (among many other insulting things) isn’t bashing? 
Oh please. Please copy and paste where any of us have done that. Once again, please copy and paste where any of us have done that. Please copy and paste where any of us said “I don’t believe that the personal stories you’ve related here are actually true. I think you made them up. No Christian has ever treated you badly.”
I don’t think any of us here are trying to deny that your experiences are valid. We are only questioning your claim that 90% of ALL Christians in the USA are “idiotic” and “stupid”. That is a pretty broad brush, so pardon us if we question it. Unless you want us to believe that yes, you actually have met every single Christian in the USA, and yes, you have taken time to get acquainted with each and every one of them, and yes, 90% of them are assholes. If that’s the case - wow. I’m impressed. You really must do a lot of travelling.
Oh good grief. What melodrama. Are you going to take the advice you gave me earlier, and go check out that thread on “Futurama” in Cafe Society? 