Huh. Interesting. It doesn’t even show me the Beverage Bar, and I’m registered and everything. Oh, well.
I cave. 
A bigot, huh? I don’t think that I’m prejudiced against Christianity any more than any other religion (although I am no fan of religion, in general.)
So let me get this straight.
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U.S. Christians welcome gays, approve of gay marriage, and fight antigay bias.
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Criticizing a religion is bigotry.
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Anger at institutionalized prejudice is bigotry.
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Any cruelty that may be encountered is in no way inspired by religion.
Gotcha.
I want to live in your world. This one sucks.
Um… Your #1 is both true and false. It is true on an individual basis (if not of the individuals you’ve been subjected to). But no one EVER said, as far as I know, that it is true of everyone.
And as to #2… you’re not being accused of bigotry because of your criticism. You’re being accused of bigotry because you’re utterly refusing to listen to anyone’s arguments without throwing a tiff. A bigot is “a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices” and that is exactly what you are doing, like it or not.
#3, see above.
#4, the cruelty may be inspired by the person’s interpretation of his or her religion but that does NOT mean that the religion is inherently cruel.
I never said that the religion was inherently cruel. Christianity, as Jesus taught the apostles, is a glorious restoration of sinful humanity to full fellowship with God.
If Jesus were here right now, the pack of you would tell him, “Stop preaching against the Scribes and the Pharisees. Have You met every one of them? Saying that they are the sons of perdition is just anti-Pharisee prejudice.”
But theory isn’t practice, now is it?
If Jesus were here right now there’d be no fucking Pharisees for him to bitch about, for that matter. And I’d need three forms of I.D. and a letter from god himself to believe that it was Jesus to begin with.
If Jesus were here right now, He’d be too busy kicking Falwell’s and Robertson’s asses to worry about us.
If I came across as patronizing, then I apologize.
I believe that your posts were leading to an escalation of tension between you and gobear. You can continue to post in any manner you like, as if you need my permission. However, if your goal is to show Christ’s Love, which I suppose as a professing Christian you’d want to do, then I’d think you’d want to try to be a little more understanding and less confrontational. Gobear has testified to the personal harm he has suffered at the hands of those professing to be Christian. I posted cites that show the four largest Christian demoninations in the US have explicitly anti-gay policies. I think the onus is on moderate and liberal Christians, one of which I believe you to be, to change that. Only by changing the official stance of the Church can reconciliation with the larger Gay community be brought about. But that is just my opinion, YMMV.
gobear, I think you’re only looking at this in only black and white terms, not allowing for any grey to filter in. No one here is saying that across the board, U.S. Christians “welcome gays, approve of gay marriage, and fight antigay bias.”
Again, no one is saying that all or a majority of those in the U.S. who call themselves a Christian fight the good fight, accept all walks of life, remain humble in the eyes of the Lord, butter the bottom of their slice of toast, etc. All they are saying is that real personal experiences are not proof or solid evidence of coming to the conclusion that 90% of Christians are backwater idiots.
The people you’ve met are real. The experiences you’ve had are real. The emotions you’ve felt are real. The bad things that some Christians do are real. No disputes these facts.
The thing we are disputing is substituting “all” or “90%” for “some”.
I never said, “all,”’ or “90 percent.” I used the figure of 10 Ashcrofts to 1 Polycarp as a subjective impressuion, not a genuine statistic. Yosemitebabe decided I was saying 90 percent of all Christians are idiots, " and that was all it took to form a mob. You guys are listening to each other, not to me.
According to CNN,
It doesn’t state the religion of the population sample, but it’s safe to assume they’re likely mostly Christian.
[quote]
Barna Research of Ventura CA found on 2001-MAY that 48% feel that homosexual activity between consenting adults should be legal; 42% said they should not be legal; 10% had no opinion. **There is a noticeable gap between “born again” Christians and other Americans: Only 34% of born-again adults feel that this behavior should be legal. 57% of non-born-again feel that way. **
Homebrew pointed out that the four largest Christian denominations have explicit antigay policies. I have given you strong evidence of many, many personal encounters that have formed my opinions, and now I’ve given you statistics.
Am I saying that 90 percent of Christians are ignorant and backward? No, and I never did!. Do I think there are more unenlightened Christians than enlightened? Damn right.
But you will dismiss this because it doesn’t fit in with your preconceived notions that The World Is Good and that humanity is enlightened, charitable, and beneficent.
There really aren’t too many shades of grey here. You have a choice of one of three propostions.
- More Christians favor gay rights.
- More Christians oppose gay rights.
- Half support; half oppose.
Please don’t ever again say that you’re not judgmental, prone to knee-jerk reactions, or incapable of breathing with your head stuck up your ass. Because you are clearly capable of all of the above, and you sell yourself short when you say otherwise.
When did I ever assert the contrary?
Judgemental? Of course, I am. Judgement is an essential part of being human. Weighing consequences, deciding the merits of a proposition, discerning good from evi are how we make judgements.
Knee-jerk reactions? Sure, sometimes. So do we all.
Head up my ass? Eh, that’s just name-calling.
You did, in fact, dismiss my post with an irrelevant ad hominem attack.l
Not that gobear needs anyone to defend him, but c’mon… most Christians are NOT like Polycarp. They believe that everyone who doesnt think like they do is going to be eternally tortured by a, um “merciful, loving God”. :rolleyes:
Dont believe it? How about an up-to-date look at the old “Christians in heaven will rejoice in the shrieks of those tormented in Hell” Check out the Christianity Today article, here. And I quote:
Whatever.
Loving, my ass.
Oh, and don’t hold gobear to some high standard of forgiveness and kindness. He’s not the one claiming some magic superGod lives inside him.
You’re right, Mars. Let the many atheist missions of charity stand as examples to Christians everywhere.
Point taken Lib, but at least you don’t see atheists running around telling others they will burn alive forever because of who they love, or who they do or do not believe exists.
I’m trying. Homebrew is trying. IIRC, Jodi is trying. But, as someone once commented on ignorance and this board’s motto, “There’s an awful lot of bigotry out there. No wonder it’s taking longer than we thought.” And much of it is founded in selective quotations from Scripture and therefore touted as the Will of God.
Jodi, it would be patronizing of me to seek to tell you how you ought to feel regarding what Gobear said. But I hope you will not feel offended when I quote our mutual Lord:
Not that I’m calling gobear “evil” or an “enemy” – but I saw clearly that in his assault on Christianity he was taking the large group of vocal conservatives who dump on him and his fellow gays as speaking for the institution – and the few voices raised in their defense are drowned out.
Mars, undoubtedly you can find almost anything you want to find spoken of as “God’s will” somewhere on the Net. May I suggest that all of us involved in this question might examine what is reported about the Man supposed to have founded and inspired this institution to see what He might have to say on the subject? (IMHO, He was more inclined to see the people who, being in their own opinions righteous, judged others as the sinners in need of repentance, than the people whom they were sitting in judgment upon, for whom He had compassion.)
Distinguo–I have not in any way assaulted Christianity; in fact, I was highly complimentary to your religion. My assault was on Christians, and only on the antigay, hateful ones. Surely, you see the difference?
Polycarp is the only poster here, who, while disagreeing with me, was compassionate and kind. He’s about the only person here who can make me think that the Holy Spirit might actually be at work.
Everyone else was snide and self-righteous. Not that I mind, but if they were trying to show the love of God at work in their lives, they failed. Jesus never said, “when criticized, snarl at your critics,” did He? All they showed me is that there’s no difference between them and Trekkies–just another club.
I wish good things for people here. I wish they didn’t hate me, but that’s past praying for. I would like for them to admit that, yes, more Christians try to ban books they don’t like, support antigay legislation, and push creationism in schools than think otherwise. I would like for them to show some empathy instead of dismissing and belittling honest accounts of the pain their co-religionists have caused.
I’m not a bigot. I’m willing to be persuaded that I’m wrong. I want to believe that there is some special grace that your faith imbues upon you.
Maybe Jodi and others can reflect on I Corinthians 13:1-2 and James 1:27-28
Absolutely, and thanks for making clear which group you meant. My apologies for misparaphrasing your stance.
In some places we’re both quite familiar with, I imagine. 
You may suggest it, and I will heartily second the suggestion. Now, whether the preponderance of Christian churches would welcome the suggestion and enact it is another matter entirely.
And for the record, and in an attempt not to hijack, let me say that since deconverting I have found much peace. Peace that no one is going to burn forever, peace that I am not required to think that everyone is naturally evil, and peace that I am free to admit that I don’t know everything.
I don’t know. Lolo came awfully close.
gobear, I really think you should reread this entire thread. You admitted yourself that some of your responses were hastily made. And I’m going to assume that to you, a hastily made remark isn’t the most thoroughly thought out. Many of your posts read like you merely skimmed over other’s posts chanting to yourself “you’re wrong you’re wrong you’re wrong” just so you could get to the reply box at the bottom so you could prove them wrong.
Most of the people you’re accusing of hating you and denying that there are Christians who hate gays have admitted that there are Christians who hate gays. In fact, there are several instances of people (who you’re attacking) suggesting that a majority of them do. These are the same posters whose dialogue you are dismissing.
These same posters are also acknowledging your experiences, referring to them, and offering their own. Your response to that is to say that they’ve belittled your experiences and dismissed them.
The sum of all of this is that the people who are “against” you are simply asking for some evidence of what you say. And they’re not doing it to spite you, and in most cases they’ve done it while simultaneously trying to reinforce their friendship with you.
You have yet to provide that evidence - the numbers you’ve provided are not sufficient. All they say is that a majority of born-again Christians are anti-gay. That is something that has yet to be disputed in this thread. What your info does not indicate is the size of the born-again Christian population, and the size of the non-born-again Christian population. There is a difference, and I’m willing to bet that it will be a significant difference in the numbers since they’ve been left out of the study.
All I’m asking is that you reread, and not try to put things in terms of just black and white, in just 0% or 100%. I will admit that I nearly frothed at the mouth at your initial 90% comment. But I now see the point you were making - that no way in hell are more than 10% of Christians capable of communicating and exhibiting a true Christian demeanor the way that Polycarp does. (I’d posit even further and say that there is no way that 10% of upright walkers are capable of doing so.) You were not saying that 90% of Christians are muddwelling homophobes, but that at the extremes you’re more likely to find more idiots than saints.