no title, as I don't have the words for titling this topic

Factual Questions
1

I want to say first of all, that is not a happy subject, and may be offensive to you. Offense is not intended in any manner, as this topic is posted of pure scientific and medical curiosity. Please read no further if you are easily offended. I am not trolling. If choose to read on, you will agree my post is benign.

Throughout my life, I have encountered many mentally/physically handicapped individuals who suffered from involuntary movement. I don’t know what this condition is called. I saw a young man at a restaurant today, who I assumed was autistic or something else. He constantly was violently thrusting his torso back and forth from the waist up, head first. This was not a seizure, it was obviously something he does 24/7, judging from his caretakers handling of him. It was frightening and saddening at the same time. Some people were trying to keep themselves from laughing. I was not amused.

I went to elementary and junior high with a guy who was not literally handicapped, but he too had a thing about having to be repetitiously moving all the time. I can’t recall what his specific action was though. My following query arose to me way back then and I present it to you now.

Before I go any further I want to state that I am in no way predjudiced against any type of handicapped individuals. They are human beings just like you and me, who just got unfortunate in life. I don’t have any ill-will or wish any harm on these type of people whatsoever. What follows is just a question, and nothing more. I am interested in the medical aspects of my query out of the simple sake of scientific curiosity and nothing more. I don’t hope or propose that my query be performed in any manner, beyond text based theory alone. It may sound mean and cruel but that’s not my intent at all. Please understand this.

Here is the question:

What would happen physically to a handicapped individual who suffers from these violent, repetitious, body motions, if they were rendered completely immobile, without the use of drugs, such as a being placed in a full body cast?

The psychological impact of such implications upon the individual seem quite obvious, so that isn’t what I am looking for here. The person would go completely stark raving mad. I am interested in what would happen to the body, since it can’t do it’s un-natural movement. Would it shut down and die? Would it simply tire out and stop trying to move? I have no clue.

As I said, this only a question and nothing more. Please don’t think ill of me. I know it is not a nice thing to ask, but this is a science based board, and the only place where I may get a scientific answer to something I have wondered about since I was child. I apologize if anyone has been upset by this. If this topic is deemed unsuitable, the mods and I will discuss it and take care of it amicably.

2

Well, MSK, I’ve certainly seen worse topics. The sad thing is that it can’t really be offensive because I’m certain that what you describe was prescribed as treatment for these diseases originally, if cruelly.

What you describe seems most characteristic of Huntington’s chorea, a hereditary disease in which the basal ganglia of the brain degenerate and no longer function properly, causing involuntary motion. Generally this motion is originally of the limbs, and then migrates to the rest of the body over the course of several years, culminating eventually in death through, basically, overactivity. It is accompanied by progressive dementia.

There is no cure.

(There are several other diseases with similar symptoms, but Huntington’s is the most common).

Putting such a person in a full-body cast would not, IMO, drive them stark-raving mad. Generally, these people do not like these movements; they have simply learned to deal with them, until such time as the dementia progresses to the point at which they can’t deal with them. Placing them in a cast wouldn’t stop the movements, though; it would just make them more tiring (like straining against a very heavy weight) and would likely bruise the patient. But it would never stop the movements, which as I recall persist even while sleeping.

Huntington’s is one of those tragedies that they’re slowly working on a cure for, like ALS. We can only hope they’ll find one eventually.

LL

3

Another possibility is that autistics and those types may be practicing self-stimulation (don’t get dirty on me!) in the form of rocking, head-banging, waving their hand in front of their face or something like that. If you tied them down they wouldn’t suffer any phyiscal problems, but they would get extremely agitated and lash out.

4

I don’t understand. When the repetetive movements are voluntary, what does this “do” for the person? I know we are not talking about anything sexual. I can’t comprehend how rocking back and forth incessantly, or whatever, makes the person feel better, or what else it may do for them.

5

It’s a sort of cause and effect thing. For an adult, you don’t get any great joy out of sitting in a chair rocking back and forth… yet somehow those rocking chairs and those romantic swing-loveseat things are quite popular. Well, maybe this is a bad example but stimulating their inner ear to detect movement is apparently enough to keep someone interested if they are autistic/ retarded in some way. At least that’s how I’ve always interpretted it.

It’s kind of like a child who repeatedly spills out a bag of marbles then puts them back and does it again. What the hell is the fun in that? I don’t know either, yet that seems to keep my two year old nephew pretty busy some days. It must be the same with these people. You only notice because the person doing it is an adult. When a child acts this way, we just assume it’s normal behavior.

In some cases, it might simply be to get attention from the caregiver. And if the caregiver previously paid attention to that behavior and now does not, the natural response (per B.F. Skinner’s psych research 101) can be to exaggerate the movement in an effort to once again try to capture that attention again.

6

I’m thinking: skin abrasions, possibly spraining of joints. Pretty soon abrasions turn into cuts, bruises, etc. Before a really long time you’d have the equivalent of a really sore, bloody, bruised wound in there. Also, because of sweating and hair it’d probably be pretty infected.

Would it shut down? Probably not. Would it get worse? Possibly. Would it really hurt the person, physically (ignoring otherwise)? My guess: YES. Very much so.

In some cases, this rocking or movement or whatever is the cause of neurons firing randomly. Or repetitively. Autistic children have been said to be (I have no absolute evidence of this, nor do I have experience with it) in their own worlds, sometimes completely oblivious to everything around them.

I don’t think ill of you any more than I think ill of AHunter3 for his suggestion of a surrogate uterus in GD. Which is to say, these kinds of things need to be discussed. The only way to learn is to explore.

That said, no offense MSK, but if I ever saw you trying to put someone in a cast made of duct tape, unless this was a fetish or for a dramatic production I’d kick your ass. Seriously:)

7

Hey, Duct Tape Casts have their uses, imapunha!

8

I am not a doctor, but I play one on…oh, to hell with it.

My understanding is that certain autistic individuals rock back and forth or have other voluntary movements because they are soothing. Why are they soothing? Because they are exactly like all the other movements, they are what this person has become used to. Autistic people usually have a very hard time with novelty, they hate it. So rocking back and forth all the time is one way to keep one part of the universe the same all the time.

9

Something I can speak to with personal knowledge!! As opposed to all my posts where I blather and hope not to get caught.

I worked as a counselor for two autistic men. Bob (not his real name) did the repetitive torso-rocking thing, while Doug (ditto) didn’t - he had other repetitive behaviors. It is a voluntary motion, and not a “symptom” of autism in the medical sense of the term. Perhaps it is best described as an associated behavior.
Basically, autistics rock because its soothing. Compare it to bouncing a ball against the wall. Why in god’s name to you do that? Repetitive action can be relaxing.
Austistics take it to the extreme. As noted, autistics generally hate novelty, and generally love the same things, over and over. For example, Bob’s favorite reward was, of all things, blue shorts. He had dozens of them. (He also loved it when I bounced a basketball off his forehead.)
Bob generally rocked whenever possible, but the rocking was more pronounced when he was losing control. Since Bob had limited verbal skills, my conclusions are based on observation, but his losing-control rocking was likely an attempt to keep control by engaging in an activity he had control over.
Rocking is generally not considered a problem by those treating and caring for autistics. Since socialization and occasionally vocational training were items on the agenda at the organization I worked for, we usually tried to control rocking in public (nothing nasty, just saying “sit up straight”). Since my guys were usually pretty happy when we went out (again, we almost always went to the same places, as they loved familiar surroundings), telling Bob to sit still never caused problems (though we was usually rocking again in about 10 minutes).

Sua

10

  1. MSK nothing is offensive about the subject. Autism and its related behaviors are simply autism – not good, not bad, and certainly not “icky”.

  2. I forgot to mention the best benefit of rocking – Bob had killer abs!! :wink:

Sua

11

SuaSponte: The reason I say that the young man I saw was doing his movements IN-voluntarily, were:
[li]He seemed to be struggling terribly. He was thrusting as he walked, and it was obvious the he wanted to get where he has going but the thrusting was hindering his progress. He was visibly aware of this.[/li][li]His hands were wrapped up in something which looked like bandages, but I’m not sure if they were. The wrappings appeared to be to keep him from using his hands, and not that his hands were injured. It was very strange.[/li][li]I simply did associate the rocking with autism. He didn’t look to be retarted, in the traditional sense. Most often, retarted people have visible features which distinguish them as such.[/li]
**Iampunha, and others:**In regard to immobilization of an individual, you suggest as though there is a significant amount of room for movement, even encased in a body cast. When I am speaking of immobilization, I mean TOTAL immobilization. The only way I can illustrate this is similar to what they did to HanSolo in the Empire Strikes Back. I am talking about skin tight, full body immobilzation, where the only allowed movement, would be for the lungs to expand and contract during breathing, and without hindering the body’s circulatory system.

for example: If such a person were completely encased in a block of resin, from head to toe, and with tubes inserted for breathing, feeding, etc, the non-organ muscles may still contract and relax, but MOTION would be rendered nearly impossible. This is the degree of immobilazation I am referring to.

What would happen?

12

What would happen to you? You’d go bonkers. Doesn’t matter if you have Huntington’s, or are autistic, or what.

LL

13

People with autism will sometimes use stims to close out overwhelming sensations. they often have sensory integration problems (where the brain has difficulty in processing sensation) and the stims help them manage the sensation. Autistics can use stims to shut out the world and sometimes it is necessary to help them stop the rocking or head banging. Spinning is a form of over stimulation which many autistic children use to close out the world.

Another form of stim is actually hurt themselves which has to be discouraged obviously.

14

Here is a less inhumane suggestion:

What would happen if you placed such an individual in a sensory deprivation tank? Theoretically, they wouldn’t be able to feel their “stims”

15

Yikes! That’s completely inhumane! It might sound kind but if you have the sort of brain which is processing sensation incorrectly, then a sensory deprivation tank could be pure living hell. It might not be but I wouldn’t want to try it.

If an autistic person has hyper auditory probs, then putting them in a situation where they cannot stim to tune out the hyper sensitive hearing, it could be really distressing.

16

Autisitics and people with some mental illnesses rock. It makes them feel better. Babies love being rocked, have you ever noticed rocking chairs are standard NICU equipment?
I find myself rocking slightly when stressed out or deep in thought.

MSK, if you put an autistic person in a SDT, you still have to take them out at some point. Going from, what I can only surmise would be almost nirvana to someone with autism, back into reality would be hellish.

17

It could even have been Tourette’s syndrome. My husband has this. As far as suppressing the movements, he can do it for short periods - but he says it is like holding back a sneeze - sooner or later it has to come out. For a cause like this, the result of the situation you suggest would be, for someone like him anyway, extremely mentally distressing if nothing else. There’s also a diversionary element - if the movement is in his arm, but he can’t physically move his arm, it will reappear elsewhere on his body - his eyelid for instance.

Charley.