No Wonder "It's Taking Longer Than We Thought"

The BBQ Pit
81

Warning: this is long.

Libertarian
Member posted 01-21-2000 01:49 PM

So, when speaking to you or of you, your belief in a particular deity, no matter if it’s a real deity is off limits? You will notice I did not postulate that your belief may be unreal, only the object of that belief.

IMHO, your stipulation above that the object of your belief is off-limits to others’ stated doubts is not cryptic, but without sense. Sorry, but that’s the way I see it.

Libertarian
Member posted 01-21-2000 02:20 PM

The comparison to a belief in a deity to a belief in a particular human being’s existance in this case is not valid. The deity is not subject to empirical proof. You can not provide absolute proof of its existence. On the other hand, if your mother had died, the County Coroner could present you with the deceased’s body and no matter how many times you denied her death, it would still be absolutely evident.

Libertarian
Member posted 01-21-2000 02:50 PM

Would you be so kind as to provide the relevant verse in either the Old Testament or the New Testament to support this version of Hell?

But it is also unbelievably presumptuous of you to stipulate that others not voice things that you don’t believe. Your placing the expressed doubts as to the existance of your god by others is presumptuous. And it is also, in a very big way, forcing your religion on others.

82

Wow. I’m gone for a little while and a whole argument grows and (apparently) dies. Damn! I hate to miss out on that stuff.

Anyway, in case there’s any fight left, I just wanted to point out that Lib said:

Maybe you’ve already straightened this out with Gaudere and others (I admit it, I got lost in that whole bear in the tent eating peanut butter thing), but I can’t give respect to some thing that I don’t even think exists. I can give respect to Libertarian, but that does not mean I will never say anything that goes against Libertarian’s beliefs. Heck, in some cases I will purposely say things that go against his beliefs!

So you’re another Phaedrus sock puppet? Man…

83

Drat. I left out an observation on the “subjective attribute” known as love.

Actions can be observed and one can draw conclusions based on those actions, one of those conclusions would be that someone loves another. That is not proof it is merely a postulate. Love itself, like Evil itself, is not observable. Actions are.

84

DavidB:

I will trade you some of my Trail Mix of Discerning Lifeslessness of Horses If I can borrow the Unfailing Rod of Skepticism, and the Irate Hand of Mikey.

Often wrong… NEVER in doubt

85

Anyone mind if the Evil, Ignorant slythe speaks up?
I just got back from work, and have read a few misperceptions about myself that I would like to clear up. I do know enough about math to know that infinity cannot be disproved by a simple mathematical equation. I saw no reason to merely repeat the corrections done by others in the infinity thread, because they were done quite well by their posters. As far as religion goes, I have been a member of the Nazerine, Methodist, Episcopalian, and Baptist churches because my family moved alot. I have studied the Bible in more ways than you can imagine, and have read from cover to cover at least 8 different versions of it. I also know what befalls people throughout history if they profess not to believe in the current popular religion. As I have said before, no matter what holy war is being fought, my kind will be seen as the easily expendable enemy. I have personally seen what people will do in the name of religion to neighbors, friends, and even family. If I had chosen to believe differently from my family, I would be welcome home, but because I don’t believe at all, they all believe that I worship Satan.
Libertarian, if you feel put-upon by my postings, I am truly sorry. But I will not give respect to beliefs that have caused me and countless others personal harm. The arguement that if I attack your “Father” I am attacking you is an imaginary shield I will not respect. I don’t disbelieve in you, and I would never mean you harm. I wish you all the joy in the world.

86

This is the most twisted thread of any message board I have ever read. My eyes are bugging out from trying to figure out left from right, up from down! Bears? Peanut Butter? WTF does that have to do with the tea in China? < hehe >

I think what Poly may be trying to say, from my interpretation is, it’s time to take down the armor and try have healthy discussions. Read and state your post in a manner that suggests thought and understanding (even if you don’t understand.)

I have stated (in my few short months on this board) that this a message board which is so different than a chat session and farther from real life conversations. You can’t politely interupt the person speaking and as in IRL you can’t evoke your emotions with your voice.

Lib, you and I have a lot that is in common with regards to our beliefs. I must admit I stayed away from the Up the Butt Bob board as the first few comments after your posting seemed to be quite rude to anything you said. In addition to that, I have stayed away from some of the stronger debates because of how impassionate people can get which in turn leads to almost insults.

I have experienced this in some of my own “conflicts” on the boards. My concern for you from what I have seen on this thread is that(trying hard to word this right because again you and I have a lot of the same beliefs) you are taking David B.s and others beliefs and making them sound as if they are discounting you. From my own experience as a non-Christian but a theist and a former atheist, that I may disregard my family’s beliefs about Jesus Christ, the Bible and such, but in my heart I know they are the same people I have loved all my life. I don’t look at another and state, well you believe this way therefore you don’t exist. I know in my heart that the things that my family learns and studies everyday don’t apply to me for my own very personal reasons. But I can’t convince the color blind person that green and yellow are different.

What you feel in your heart is obviously dear to you. But as a Libertarian first and foremost you also have to accept that there will be those that oppose your views religiously as they do under any other form of government. But you Lib, you of all people should not feel as though you are being personally attacked by what you believe and what other’s don’t. Yes these are issues with you that help you through the day…but my friend, there is a time that you need to step back and take a deep breath. There’s never a good place to hold back, but maybe in some instances there are times you do need to take a deep breath.

In issues that have been brought up about your Father, I don’t believe for a minute that they mean any disrespect to you at all. I think not believing is easier than believing. I back you up whole heartedly on having a strong belief, but again if someone believed in Budda or The Shaman only sets you apart as humans thinking not as spiritual beings in my eyes. I don’t think of Atheists looking upon us thesists and saying “you think about God, therefore you are worthless.” They see, from my own perspective as a former atheist, what the hell are you people doing? You believe in something that I can’t touch, feel, taste or see therefore it doesn’t exist. Not all think this way but many do. But I, well, I always figured, if that’s what gets you through the day fine. I have changed because of certain things in my life that should have had a different outcome, there was something there protecting me I truly believe this.

As for David B. (don’t kick me outa the boards please < on knees >) but you obviously have stricken a cord with Lib regarding his beliefs. I say to you too, there are times when one needs to hold back a little and think about what consequences your words may have on the other. I know this is not a popular view with anyone, but it’s true.

I was blasted in the adoption ring for my beliefs and I calmly (I think) came back with an answer that didn’t offend anyone but stated my position on the matter. Stupidly I bring up a lot of personal stuff that people seem to love to take through the ringer. Hey, no skin off my back. If I said it, then I better be able to back up my words or eat them.

As for anyone on this board, except for the people that come in here souly to create problems, this is a good place to come to. Poly is right, “When people sign on this board, they get welcomed warmly and share in a lot of intellectual and sometimes emotional give-and-take. And that’s what makes a community.” The rest will find their way out the door. And unfortunately from my many years experience on AOL all it takes is for some fuck up to screw up the entire party, if only they had an ignore button for those that you call “trolls.”

Damn, this is long…sorry, I just wanted to put in my two cents worth…and Lib…take it easy listen to some mellow music while on the boards, dang I am so mellow!

======

Hope that came out right < keeping fingers crossed >

87

TechChick:

I could hardly do better than the advice freely offered by a libertarian theist. I wish that you had participated in the Atheist Religion thread, where I was trying to understand the atheist mindset. So, they look at us and go, “What in the world are they thinking?”. I guess that sounds similar to how I feel when I look at people eating seafood.

Maybe there just isn’t an atheist mindset.

Gaudere:

Hell Rocks by Libertarian

A pet rock.

Rock the baby.

Little kid throwing rocks.

Bigger kid studying rocks.

Teenager Rockin’ ‘n’ Rollin’.

Twenties buy her a rock because

She rocks my world.

Thirties rock opera star.

Fourties rock opera director.

Fifties retired from rock opera.

Sixties off my rocker.

Seventies no rock of ages.

Eighties rocking chair.

Nineties pile of dirt with rock inscribed,

“Hell rocked.”

SINsApple:

All the time.

Monty, Slythe:

Um, you might have missed where I told Gaudere that, after thinking it over, I understood what she was saying, and that I had changed my mind. You have every right to say anything about me and my God that you please, no matter what its effect on me.

88

Oh, give me a break, Lib. All you did was state that those who don’t believe in your god don’t know what they’re doing and are in hell because they are separated from your version of deity.

And, it must be noted, you yourself have stated that your deity isn’t a god, he’s your “Father” whatever that might mean to you.

Another thing: you still haven’t answered my request to provide a particular verse from scripture to aid your assertion that the definition of hell is separation from your “Father.”

I missed nothing; and I especially didn’t miss your incredibly condesending attitude toward those of us who don’t follow your faith in this thread.

89

Monty:

You certainly make some good points.

I think what I told Gaudere was, “In thinking it over, no, I guess I don’t mind that at all, because, in a profound way, He really does not exist for the unbeliever after all.” That is, she was right and I was wrong.

So far as hell being a separation from God, it seems reasonable to me that hell is whatever heaven isn’t. At Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "“My prayer is not for [these disciples] alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” That passage, as I see it, echoes the ablativity of the passage from the last supper, “The Father is in me, you are in me, I am in you,” etc. At Gethsemane, He went on to pray, “May [those who believe] also be in us (Jesus and the Father) so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

So therefore I am given to understand that whoever does not believe is not in Him or in the Father or in us.

So far as condescension, you might be right even though I intended no condescension. As Gaudere knows (or ought to know), I was confident that she would understand what I was saying. To say that she is in hell is not meant to be an insult or dig, because she knows full well that Jesus Himself was in hell. I was too. There is really nothing, in my opinion, to stop her from leaving it whenever she feels like it.

She is content with her separation from us. Gaudere, if you did misinterpret what I said, then I apologize for saying it the way I did. I’m trying to work on my style. It just might take a little time.

90

“Ablativity??”

Lib, you are so cool!

91

I think the change is not just one of style, it is an increase of understanding. When I post, it is not just a matter of “This is what I think.” I also take into account what I believe will be other people’s reaction to it, and whether that reaction is desired and good (this is hardly a sure route to perfect communication, though; I honestly thought that most of my statements to Phaedrus, though stern, would not hurt him and would in fact help him. I was manifestly wrong.). I think if you ask yourself questions like “How would I feel if someone constantly made little digs about my political philosophy?” “How would I feel if someone said I should not state what I believe because it offended them?” “How would I feel if someone posted nonsensical comments on a message board just to hold their place, thereby cluttering the board with posts that have no value to any other readers?” (I think you’re annoying/confusing the other posters, so I figure I’ll bring it up before you get flamed. The “phase shift” posts are only of use to you and do not contribute to a thread. This board does not exist for your sole use; think of how you would feel if many other people just posted random comments as “placeholders” all the time. It’s certainly not something I would like to see.) If something someone says hurts or irritates you, try to figure out why, and whether that reaction is reasonable; also, if someone is hurt or irritated by a statement you make, do the same. If an atheist saying “God does not exist” bothers you, think about whether it would be reasonable for the atheist to be bothered by you saying “God does exist”. Would the atheist have a right to tell you not to say what you believe? If not, do you have a right to request the atheist not say what they believe? I know you have already accepted this point, I am just using it as a demonstration of the sort of thought processes used.

You’ve gotten a lot of lectures lately, and I hope you don’t think that you’re not well-repected and liked. The reason, I think, that we bring these things up is that you honestly don’t seem to want to irritate people, yet you often do. This irritation will get in the way of your arguments. If you can understand other people well enough to phrase things in a manner that will not irritate a reasonable person, I think your ability to convey your thoughts to others will increase dramatically.

92

Lib

I did kind of participate in the atheist thread, but just offering a link to Britannica about their definition of atheist. Here’s the link if you didn’t get a chance to read it: http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,117394+3,00.html

As for postings, maybe we all need to take a deep breath on some of the hot topics people bring up. Occassionaly I surf through the GD threads and read a few, start a response and bite my right hand and cancel out. I 'spose this has something to do with being attacked for things I might say. I don’t like to be wrong, no one does but I hate being attacked for beliefs I hold dear to me. So there are times when I step back and not say a thing…maybe it’s the little girl in me that stops because she’s afraid of being “teased.”

It would be nice if the boards had a better way of helping one state what they actually meant without offending :slight_smile:

Anyhow Lib, if you ever need a fellow Libertarian to back you up or help you I am here for you. Just remember to take most of what you see on the boards with a grain of salt. Again, it’s hard to decifer exactly the meaning behind the post and most are not geared to explain you are a terrible person for thinking this way but a means by which to refute what you have said.

We all are living, breathing human beings with opinions and by damned if we don’t constantly get in the way of one another :slight_smile:

93

Thank you polycarp for your post and this thread. I have already had my “breaking in” experience on this board. It seems that another poster thought that she knew me. I started a thread and during the posts in the thread the person questioned me on my identity and whether she knew me or not. I told her quite plainly no that she did not know me. I started another thread yesterday in another forum and this same poster again questions me because of some similarities between me and this person she knows. What part of no did she not understand the first time? I am afraid that I probably didn’t handle the situation correctly. But I thought that we had already discussed the issue and it was over…then to have it pop up again out of the blue during a thread took me by surprise I guess. I received several emails…one of which said don’t feed the trolls…ok I’ve only been posting here a month…as was pointed out by another poster who said they would not cut me any slack because the other poster was a “regular” on the board. I’m not sure what is even meant by don’t feed the trolls. I can understand where Satan is coming from when he says that people on the board have hurt his feelings. I guess I need a thicker skin. Instead of just letting the situation die off…it seems that it just keeps going on and on. I refuse to post to it any more and it’s my thread.
There have been people here that have made me feel welcome and have overlooked my ignorance as I learn…but there are others that feed on the new people and would like nothing better than to see them leave the board. Sorry…I happen to like it here for the most part and intend to stay unless admin dumps me off. Can someone please tell me how long you have to post there before you are considered a “regular”?

“Do or do not, there is no try” - Yoda

94

Since the belief in God is based on faith and noone can really PROVE that He does or does not exist and since using legal terminology there is no foundation in fact to support any premise in this regard, why do all of you debate this issue? Do any of you really believe that you are going to change anyone’s convictions on the Pro-God or Non-God or Maybe God issue?

I can see how someone like Lib would be upset and/or hurt when he believes as strongly as he does but can’t convince the other side since there really is no way to do it.

Scientists don’t know if there is an entire different world inside the atom or not but altho its freely discussed, I don’t believe anyone would be hurt by someone who holds an opposite opinion.

I am therefor I be

95

<font size=4>Tents, swords, flaming arrows, Holy Hand Grenades, and monotheistic bears (that probably shit in the woods, right next to the Pope)! :smiley:

You guys are all nuts! On both sides. :stuck_out_tongue:

Only blind, fanatical adherence to either religion or rationalism leads to unethical behavior or loss of personal integrity. Balance, as in most things in life, is key.
:cool:

With magic, you can turn a frog into a prince. With science, you can turn a frog into a Ph.D, and you still have the frog you started with.

96

Sorr, Lib; can’t let you off that easily.

  1. What verse explicitly defines hell the way you did. I seem to recall one that calls it a pit of fire.

  2. You see to still stand by your assertion that if I say your deity doesn’t exist, it also means I’m saying you don’t exist. That is, in short, utter nonsense.

  3. You appear to me to not be able to separate your faith from your physical existance. That’s what was being addressed in previous posts by me and others.

97

Thank you, for finally stating the obvious. Sorry I couldn’t preserve the font size, but I’m still getting the hand of this, and I didn’t want to post everything in that size.

I subscribe to this statement wholeheartedly. When it makes sense to believe in God, I believe in Him. When it doesn’t, I don’t. When I do, the God I believe in is magnanimous enough not to hold it against me; when I don’t, neither of use care.

And your whiny, crybaby, half-assed opinion would be . . . ?

98

Well, durn-burn it! I forgot to add, I call my philosophy, Libertarian Theology.

And your whiny, crybaby, half-assed opinion would be . . . ?

99

Better than YOUR opinion, I bet! :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, I’m with ** Gaudere**: If you EVER post one of your insipid “phase shift” waste-of-space postings again, I will flame you like you’ve never been flamed before! KNOCK IT OFF!!!

And does anyone find it a coincidence that someone apparently so sensitive to attacks that he would adopt the Noncoercion Principle, which says, simply, “Don’t strike the first blow”?

I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all.

BTW, Lib, we get our morality from our culture, our family and ourselves. (Answering a question he asked me on another thread.)

>< DARWIN >
__L___L

100

Monty, I think Lib has the right to believe in any manner of God or hell he wants. If you just want a further explanation, fine, but you’re sounding a little, uh…confrontational. Lib has stated he believes in God, not the bible, so if he had personal revelation or something that God is his father, fine–as long as he also understands our right to hold and express (respectfully) a different opinion. You are a loyal and fierce defender of atheist rights, Monty, and I can’t tell you how much it means to me to see such an attitude in a theist, but I think being a bit more accepting of other theist’s points of view might be a good thing (even if they don’t always seem to understand other theists or atheists themselves).