No Wonder "It's Taking Longer Than We Thought"

The BBQ Pit
1

What a screwed-up week it has been!

When I signed on Monday morning we were midway through the Phaedrus-accuses-Gaudere-of being-most-of-the-rest-of-the-board crisis. Snark was in the process of reverting to lurker because he didn’t want 4,000 other people reading his thoughts. Libertarian and Edlyn were getting raked over the coals because they believed they had seen the stuff of an Urban Legend. Two days ago, Melin was accused of homophobia by SqrlCub.

Hello? Anybody ever hear the words “online community”? Anybody got a clue what they mean?

In my book, people are what matter most. Facts and categories, theories and beliefs, are all well and good, but where the start being used to hurt people, that’s where they need to be put down. I’ve posted my beef that “the Bible has no handles” – it’s not supposed to be used to hit people over the head. That goes for secular knowledge as well.

You know what? I don’t have a clue what Phaedrus had for “evidence” that Gaudere was actually Andros and Clark K. I think nobody does except Phaedrus himself and maybe Ed Zotti. And I don’t give a rat’s ass what it was. Gaudere has been my friend since shortly after I signed on this board. And like everybody else, I “took her side” in the Phaedrus War. And I would again in a minute.

But you know what? We’re not in third grade any more. There doesn’t need to be “sides” that we take. And there are a lot of people hurting from this past week:
[list][li]A lady in Chicago who posts as Gaudere was injured by the accusation that she was trolling under assumed names.[/li][li]Two other posters, Andros and Clark K., were accused of being her. And nobody that I’ve noticed has posted about their feelings. I haven’t seen a post from either in several days. Maybe they deserve some compassion too.[/li][li]A lady lawyer from southern California with one of the most open and kindly personae I’ve run into (albeit she can hold her own in an argument) was misunderstood as being anti-gay, and was badly hurt by it.[/li][li]A gentleman from Texas now working in D.C. who has let us know how he was hurt as an openly gay teenager felt, first, that he and other gays were being slammed, and I hope that we have headed off him feeling jumped by all the people coming to Melin’s defense.[/li][li]A regular poster and his fiancee probably feel like they were told to stick an Urban Legend somewhere. Where? Hint: It’s the title of an active thread on the subject in Great Debates.[/li][li]A man from Ohio who, on the testimony of things he’s posted, has been through some tough experiences, was driven off the board by what has every mark of being the cyber-equivalent of a lynch mob. Yeah, us. Lynch mob. And I was part of it. Don’t like it? Live with it. I was, and you were. Over in MPSIMS I posted the following about Phaedrus:[/li]

He’s a moderately successful lawyer, or maybe an experimental mycologist. Or something else. He has only himself to blame that we don’t know who he was. Playing online head games is easy. Being a real person online is harder. JBenz and I are the sole survivors here of a 1989 online community. People who cared about intelligent exchange, and about each other. Phaedrus doesn’t need my pity, and I would presume has more pride than to want it. But maybe he needs our compassion.

Why did he do what he did? I don’t have a clue. It may be jealousy. Gaudere is liked to an extent matched by no other Great Debater. Everybody on that board, of whatever metaphysical or political temperament, seems to enjoy their exchanges with her. It may be misinterpretation of some posts – if there is anybody on this board who hasn’t been on one side or another of a misinterpreted words situation, just wait a few days; you will be. It may be something else. I don’t much care.

When people sign on this board, they get welcomed warmly and share in a lot of intellectual and sometimes emotional give-and-take. And that’s what makes a community. Except for a few. They post hatred or stupidity. What do we call them? Hint: it begins with T…

Hello? The derivation of “troll” was the one Jon gave a while ago…somebody fishing for an answer he wants, not being intellectually honest. It started as a verb, “trolling” and then became a noun for a post that trolls.

Do you notice what we’ve done? It’s become an epithet for people whose posts troll. Hey, folks, unless you have concrete proof that this poster lives under a bridge, has green skin and warts on his nose, and a principal item in his diet is billy goats gruff, he or she’s not a troll. If he’s being an idiot, show him how. If he’s naive, or misinformed, or has an erroneous worldview, correct it. If he won’t listen, shake the dust of his posts off your heels and give up. But give him a chance first.

I sincerely hope Edlyn and SqrlCub and Melin and Andros and Clark K. and Gaudere and Libertarian and Snark and Phaedrus and whoever else has hurt feelings will not find it occasion to leave. And I hope we can all learn a lesson from all this horseshit. I know I have.

The truth is a defensive weapon. And given half a chance, it will win out. Don’t be assaulting people with it. The only thing you’ll hurt, in the long run, is the dreams you have.

End of rant.

2

(I shouldn’t be saying anything but. . .)

I’ve been trying to catch up on what has been going on here over the past week/month. At first I thought what Snark was saying was odd. Now I don’t blame him. I’ve been reading random stuff on several threads. I can’t believe some the insanity that has been perpetrated the past who knows how long.

Poly’s right. Chill out for a bit. If you’re angry, it may not be the best time to post. I know most of y’all B.S.ometer is set to be very sensitive. I know that none of you want your character to be questioned, but, I dunno, is proving your opponent to be a fool so important in the scheme of things?

I’m not really thinking clearly right now, I think I need some breakfast and a nap.

3

Poly, I don’t know whether this will surprise you, but the “Up the Butt” stuff didn’t bother me at all. I know what I saw, and so does Edlyn, and so does my roommate, and so does Edlyn’s boss’s sister. The only frustrating thing about it was that all the flack was from people who had never claimed to have seen it.

I went over to Snopes, asking for anybody who had thought they saw it but changed their minds after hearing about the alleged urban legend. That person, I figured, might have something useful to say. But people who had heard of it only in the context of an alleged urban legend were incapable of being objective, even though they thought that was exactly what they were being. They had already accepted the evidence and arguments from one side to be not just compelling, but factual. I saw that as a bias.

Anyway, as I say, that really never bothered me much. Neither does an intellectual pounding bother me. Gaudere has given me a few of them, as has Phil, Glitch, and even David. In fact, I love that sort of heat. I can hold my own in an intellectual battle, and I am more than willing to admit when I’ve been proven wrong. Just like when I admitted the flaw in my anti-infinity proof that Father Mentock found.

Which brings me to my point.

The only part I don’t like about this place (or any MB for that matter) is when things start getting personal. One poster, who says he doesn’t despise me though the fruit he produces is fruit that hates, summed up the problem with my proof by saying that I was ignorant about mathematics. Now, here was the Head Pontiff of Pontificators presuming to know anything at all about my mathematical background and making such a foolish summary judgement. Not only was he unable to show the flaw in the proof, he made an ass out of himself by assailing the abilities of a man who has spent his whole life (nearly) immersed in number theory, set theory, and logic. He also doesn’t like the fact that I view things always and everywhere in the context of my principles. For me, it is hard to imagine how a man could do otherwise. Unless, of course, he doesn’t have any principles to apply.

In that same vein, there is another form of personal attack that is even worse. And Gaudere (and Glitch too probably) is the only atheist who seems to really have a grasp of this. It is when they make vulgar or thoughtless insults about my Father. I don’t mean jokes. I understand jokes. But the only reason to say that my Father is a ghost, a figment of my imagination, less substantial than hydrogen, is to hurt me. And if they don’t know how much that hurts, then they are woefully beyond ignorant. They not only cannot empathize, they cannot even comprehend.

Anyway, that’s my take on it. For my part, I guess I can at least work on what a couple of people said in the Pit thread about me. I can approach things more like, “My opinion is such-and-such…” rather than, “Here is the only way to think…” That was really good criticism. The kind I can actually use and do something about. But asking me to stop viewing the world in the context of a principle that I hold so dear is a waste of of time for whoever would ask it.

4

Lib said:

I’m sorry, Lib, but you’re just plain wrong. The only reason for somebody to say that is because they think it is true.

I think the god you believe in is nonexistant. Should I, on this message board, refrain from saying so because it might hurt your feelings? Maybe you think I should, but I don’t. I will always speak the truth here, including the truth about my opinions, beliefs, or lack of belief.

It reminds me of when I had to go to a class on sexual harassment (no, no, not how to do it!) for work (everybody had to). A couple lawyers made the presentation, talking about the “reasonable person” standard. Essentially, if a reasonable person would think a statement is sexual harassment, then it is. One woman in the back didn’t like this. She was more sensitive than most and couldn’t understand why it shouldn’t be determined according to what she considered harassment. Well, it’s because we can’t read minds. Some people have extremely thin skins about certain things; others don’t. So we can only go with what a “reasonable person” would say.

Now, I know I’m taking a chance here, but I would suggest that your skin is a bit thinner about certain things than others around here. To use my story above, you seem to be offended by things that would not offend a “reasonable person.” I’m not trying to say you’re unreasonable (that term is not one I chose, and may not be a very good one for this discussion). But I am trying to say that I think sometimes your skin is unreasonably thin.

If you say that your god exists, is that a slam against atheists? No. If I say your god doesn’t exist, is that a slam against you? No.

5

David, I’m sorry, but I don’t know anything about any “god”. I don’t have a “god”. You are a man of great intellect and laudible temperance, but it seems that you just really don’t get this. I’m not talking about a “god”. I’m talking my Father. He and I are one. You cannot slam Him without slamming me.

Could I ask you a favor then? Will you please just indulge me for one minute and try to see this from my view? I know that’s really hard to do, and I would not hold it against you unless you are just unwilling to try.

6

I see we’re off to a fine start. . .

Poly, you tried. . .

7

I think it is a good start, Sterling. There is the potential for reconciliation and healing here.

8

Poly, you post has been probably the most intellegent, sincere thing I have read on this MB so far.
Kudos to you, mon compadre.

As a relative newcomer to the board, it took me a while to understand the way things work around here. I registered a few months ago, but didnt start posting properly until recently.

I enjoy reading the posts here. I have learned a lot since I started participating in the free exchange of thoughts and Ideas
involved here.
I can understand the reactions of the regulars though. They have been intimidated, frustrated, delayed, threatened, so the Lynching appears to be the reaction to this.
No-one likes to be the victim of a Sock-puppet theatre.

I know you are decent people, and I can understand why some people have been treated the way they were.

If I make an error, (in this or any of my postings) please point it out to me. Im here
to learn.
I look forward to whatever I read here. if there is anything I can add, I hope I can be given a fair hearing. point out my mistakes,
I would be happy to discuss what I do.

I know you are good people.

keep lynching the trolls, but be sure they are trolls first.

John Larrigan

“82.35% of all statistics are made up on the spot”–Vic Reeves

9

Yeah, that’s what the Pit is known for – reconciliation and healing. :rolleyes:

But on a more serious note, Lib, I’m sorry but I don’t think I really can see it through your eyes. To me, you god is just one of many mythical beings that have come and gone (well, most have gone) through human history. To you, he is your Father. This is what I meant with the “reasonable person” thing. Not that you’re unreasonable, just that you are so far outside the spectrum in some ways that you take offense where none was intended. Or, if it was intended (as it sometimes is around here by some people), you take even more offense than most! :slight_smile:

Yes, Poly is right – this is an online community. We even have some real-life get-togethers. But if you can’t sleep because you’re waiting for an e-mail from me, or you get so upset over something going on here that it interferes with “real life,” it’s time to take a step back. Now I don’t agree with everybody Poly said above. Hell, there are a lot of things I don’t agree with there, but I honestly don’t want to go over them right now. But if I did point them out, Poly probably wouldn’t sulk around and get pissed about it. If I told Poly that I think his god is an urban legend, he wouldn’t be personally hurt (hell, I have told him that!).

All in all, I really do think you need some thicker skin. Take what you read here with a grain of salt – but don’t rub that salt in your wound!

Ignorance is Bliss.
Reality is Better.

10

John:

Welcome. I look forward to your participation, but do you think you might be able to do something about your formatting?

David:

I will heed your advice and step back for a couple of hours and try really really hard to understand what you’re trying to say. No promise of an accomplishment. But a promise to try faithfully.

11

Speaking as someone who left the board for a while when some people hurt ME…

It’s a message board.

It’s text on a screen.

I have, since I came back, decided to look at it that way.

I have met some people I consider “friends” here, and would feel that way IRL, and HAVE felt that way IRL. I met my SO here - and I’ll even call her my soulmate without regret - so for that I will forever be in debt to this place.

I have met tons more friendly acquaintences, who I like, but don’t feel a connection for, and that’s fine too.

There is text here that I hate, that I find counter-productive to what I wish to do here (or in life in general, actually), and I will either call a spade a spade or ignore it.

Ultimately, I turn off my computer and get on with my life. Also, I’m not quite as open as I used to be, but at the same time, those close to me know that I was FAR from THAT
open when I was like that. There’s a lot about me you DON’T know, folks.

I saw this board invaded by cliques, and ironically, I found myself as part of one, which amazed me, since I always abhored cliques. Still do, and no, I don’t think I’m part of any clique, thanks.

People here have made me feel good about myself, voting me most popular poster, women gushing over a snap-shot, people sending me e-mails saying they appreciate my wit, intelligence, and candor.

People here have helped me through some shitty times. The Heather thing. My mom dying.

People here have hurt me. Sometimes unintentionally, but there you go.

But as I said, that’s over now.

This is text on a screen which I turn off to do the most meaningful things in my life.

That’s how I HAVE to look at it.

Sorry if this is rambling or incoherant… A little stream-of-semi-consciousness seemed the best way to make whatever point I tried to make here.

Yer pal,
Satan

12

Oh, my.

David, you’re full of shit, and your skeptical abilities are pretty lacking if you’ll take the fallible memories of one person (Bob Eubanks) with an agenda to grind over the fallible memories of four (Lib et al.) with none – in fact, at least Lib and Edlyn weren’t aware of it as an Urban Legend until after supposedly experiencing it.

Hmmm…doesn’t sound much like something Polycarp would say, does it?

Nope. It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. And, whether you like it or not, you came across as calling Lib and his fiancee liars. Never mind that I know about confabulation, or Phil or Gaudere do. You didn’t make that clear to them. And so you put them in a position of either being required by your almighty ukase as arbiter of the truth to doubt their own awareness, on your say-so, or arguing with you - interminably in Lib’s case, but he’s good at that! :slight_smile:

And I’m saying this quite offensively, David, because I want to get across to you just how insensitive you were in presenting your argument. It’s not a put-down, it’s an object lesson. I consider you a friend and a fun debating partner. But if you’re hot about being called someone who pontificates on a truth available to him, that is precisely how you came across to an unbiased observer (me). And you ought to know it, so that next time you need to dismiss an Urban Legend, you can do it without being offensive to the person presenting it.

Lib, your theological beliefs require a new Great Debate thread. And it’s one I’d like to see Monty get involved in, to examine what is said analytically, because what you seem to be suggesting is the subject of an allusion-style argument he and I have had. And before I pull my own snit, I want to see what he has to say.

In the interim, my watchword would be “respect.” The personage to whom you refer as your Father and with whom you indicate you are one would appear to the rest of us, on the basis of your posts, as identical to the first person of the Christian trinity. And your, and my, beliefs and feelings towards Him deserve the respect of other posters. One of my great problems with slythe is that there is no sense that “this is a subject on which reasonable people may disagree,” it’s “if you cannot produce a theophany here and now, you have no right to say anything about your beliefs.” Or at least that’s how I’m reading slythe’s posts. (After this week, I’m not assuming anything regarding misunderstanding posts!)

If what I’m hearing you say is correct, you have a personal, loving relationship with a Personage Who is your Loving Father and Who the rest of us would understand as the Christian God. Okay, fine. There are those who have not experienced this, and have no clue what such a relationship entails. Your job is not to develop hurt feelings over them alleging that, since it is not in their experience, it is (to them at least) unreal. Your job is to make it real to them. And I’m not talking “witnessing” here. Your job is to show forth your Father in yourself to the point that they see Him in you. Stop whimpering about “they are woefully beyond ignorant. They not only cannot empathize, they cannot even comprehend.” If you choose to speak of Him and your relationship with Him, then you must assume that those who don’t have that relationship don’t have a handle on what it means. It’s like explaining to a ten-year-old what falling in love is like. However, these are reasonable adults with an interest in what you’re saying, or they wouldn’t be reading your post. So show them what it’s like. Not by waving the “I’m a Christian, look at me” flag, but by living God’s life for Libertarian.

13

Nope. Nor does it sound much like something David B would say. So I’m somewhat at a loss as to determine your point.

Poly, I’ve already said several times over that I was too blunt there and failed to take my own advice about not coming off as a know-it-all. However, I really do not see how what I said could be at all interpreted as calling Lib a liar. I repeatedly noted that a false memory is not a lie. I went out of my way to use examples of my own such memories and those of others besides Lib. The only possible way to think I called Lib a liar is to be even more thin-skinned than he can be! :wink:

Actually, I’m afraid, it’s neither. By telling me I was perhaps too harsh to him early on, you aren’t telling me anything I didn’t already know (and had agreed with publicly in that thread already). But on the other hand, there were other folks telling me I went too easy on him! Go figure!

14

Preach it, Brother Poly!

-Melin

15

A few thoughts from somebody relatively new:

  1. If your going to post it, be prepard to have it torn apart. If you can’t handle that it’s probably not wise to post it.

  2. Some of my beliefs and some things I have thought as fact have been destroyed by a collision with reality on this board. In one case I found my ignorance to be so embarassing, I took personal offense when it was pointed out to me. I am wiser for the discussion, and the knowledge provided helped me find new areas of interest.

  3. That being said, the “Don’t be a jerk,” rule seems to imply one of my favorite sayings:

“Tact is everything when telling someone they have their head up their ass.”

  1. Most often that tact is not used. Big deal. A person who chooses not to exercise tact sets themselves up for a big fall when they say something stupid down the road.

  2. I would guess that excluding trolls and such most people here fall into two categories: Those that propose, and those that dispose. I think the proposers have the better deal. Yes, you get chewed up, but your thoughts, ideas, and knowledge all get tempered in the forge of debate. What you’re left with is usually pretty solid. The disposers on the other hand don’t usually get to advance much when they are playing that role.
    If they do so in a way that is mean or cutting, they actually diminish themselves. I don’t think that any of the regulars I’ve met or read here would do that on purpose. The fact that it happens is just the nature of debate.

  3. As for people filtering discussions through their beliefs, I say good job! I recall a Roman Senator who felt compelled to end every speech he made with “Carthage must be destroyed,” no matter the topic at hand. It was annoying and he was ridiculed for it for years, but look what happened to Carthage when all was said and done!

  4. In the great masterpiece of American film Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan Captain Kirk proves conclusively that logic is not its own end but merely an instrument to greater knowledge. As such it must occasionally be withheld in the interests of humanity and compassion.

  5. I will most likely continue to post the occasional (okay, frequent) stupid assertion here and fully expect to get my ass kicked for it when I do.

Often wrong… NEVER in doubt

16

I think the best way for me to honor the spirit of this thread is to ignore certain things that have been said about me in this thread. :rolleyes:

Still, it was worth a try, Poly. Thanks.

17

My, you ignore so vocally, RT. :wink:

18

Er, David, I know you never used the word “liar” or anything related.

But when you respond to

“I saw this on TV,”

with

“No, you didn’t,”

I certainly see how someone might interpret that the way Lib did. I think what Poly is trying to get across is that it’s impossible to convince someone of your point of view when you piss them off from square one.
Polycarp, thanks for the kind words. I’ve been posting the past few days, our paths just haven’t crossed. Regarding the whole Gaudere/andros/Clark K deal, my feelings were in no way hurt. And Phaedrus never managed to upset me or hurt my feelings at all during his tenure here. He annoyed the hell out of me, but only because I let him–once in a while I need to blow off steam and he was often a good target.

Phaedrus was fun to play with, and I admit to deliberately baiting him. While I have and will have no apologies to him for it, I now tender my apologies to you and to all other posters for my intentionally attacking him. It contributed to an agressive environment already polluted with the likes of FormerAgent and KlanMan et al.

But at the end, the SDMB is a bunch of electrons. It’s worth some time, but it’s not worth getting upset over.

Finally, Lib: I understand what you say about your faith. But just as you have the right to profess your faith in your Father without expecting me to be offended, I should have the right to profess my beliefs without expecting you to be offended (let alone mortally insulted).

Your relationship with your God (and yes, that is how I must describe it) is extremely important to you. No problem. But it isn’t important to me. After all, it’s your relationship, not mine. I will respect your faith. I will not call you a liar. I will not call you names. But I will hold and profess my beliefs without fear of upsetting you. And if my beliefs include the opinion that your God is but one of many, so be it. If I believe that your God is WRONG and you are damned to hell, so be it.

My opinions are by god as important as yours.

I won’t ever try to insult you, Lib. I promise that. But an online community dedicated to stamping out ignorance can only succeed when everyone can speak their minds without attack and without fear of offense.

-andros-

19

From reading the above interaaaction, it appears that the SDMB has substituted for the everyday of life of a large number of members.

"What about the very old put apropo adage: “sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me”? It appears that if someone feels God is that important to him and something thinks God is non-existent, so what?

How can someone hiding behind an alias have his or her feelings hurt? I have ideas about things, have stated them, have been ripped by people who strongly disagree; have been had many unpleasant and often not true( in real life adjectives thrown at me…but I know who I am and just maybe…the other party could be right and I appreciate that.

How would you like to be in Bill Clinton’s shoes and be battered litterally millions of times for his stupidity? And you know what he looks like and you know his real name.

I get the feeling that this message board is the life blood of more and more of you. Its a great board but keep it in its proper perspective. Its just an exchange of ideas and comments and nothing more. This is how I feel and if I have a number of negative replies or none at all, I still will function as I did before.

20

Andros said:

Um. I guess I have to wonder how this wasn’t addressed already when I said: “Poly, I’ve already said several times over that I was too blunt there and failed to take my own advice about not coming off as a know-it-all.” And: “By telling me I was perhaps too harsh to him early on, you aren’t telling me anything I didn’t already know (and had agreed with publicly in that thread already).”

In other words, yes, I know. I’ve known. I’ve said that I know. Do I need to write it on the blackboard 100 times? :wink:

Ignorance is Bliss.
Reality is Better.