I was watching the USA/Canada game today and they mentioned one player, Quinn, who has come out as transgender and non-binary, and uses the pronouns they/them. They were assigned female at birth.
This raised an interesting question for me. If one generally supports (as I do, given some provisions and restrictions) transgender women playing on women’s teams, how do I support someone who has moved away from identifying as a woman on the women’s team? The practical answer is “she has been allowed to continue to play on the women’s team, so that’s that.” But, I’d like to delve a little deeper.
Women’s teams are for women, usually cis-women and sometimes trans-women (after some therapy, hormones, or what have you). Quinn is a person who is saying that they are not a woman, they are transgender and non-binary. I think that a person who no longer identifies as a woman should no longer be on the women’s team. I’m having difficulty reconciling the idea of allowing a person to play for the team with which they identify vs allowing a person to play for a team with which they no longer identify. (I’m having a hard time creating that previous sentence as well – hopefully the meaning comes through)
This is a new twist that hadn’t occurred to me before, and I’m certainly open to having my mind changed. I will ask one thing, though:
I would like to keep this thread from going off the rails and I request that we keep the discussion to the subject at hand, and not the more general topic of transwomen in sports. The topic at hand, in my mind, is should someone like Quinn, who has moved away identifying as a woman, still be allowed to play for women’s teams?
Thanks for helping me think through this and the various implications.
The topic would apparently apply to women’s colleges, too – should someone who has moved away from identifying as a woman, and perhaps identifies as male, be allowed to remain at, and graduate from, the institution? While poking around online leads me to believe that most of the well-known women’s colleges admit trans women, it’s more of a mixed bag when it comes to trans men (we’re talking about people assigned female at birth, identifying as women at the time of application and admission to the school, and then identifying as male after enrolling) and non-binary students.
I hope that’s not off-topic – seems like the very same issue.
I think it’s a related topic, but I’m hoping to keep it focused on women’s teams and sports, if possible. That said, I could see how a trans man could make students uncomfortable at an all-women’s college. However, if there’s lots of crossover issues, I’m happy to discuss it all.
One of my daughter’s friends at her girls-only secondary school has come out as trans and genderfluid - not entirely sure how this works as I’ve only met the friend in person for the first time recently. They’re way too young and too early in the process for any physical treatment toward transition to begin (their mother is still coming to terms with it at this point), but apparently the school is fine with their new name and with treating them as male as such and the kids are likewise fairly chill about it.
Not sure about the bathroom/changing room situation (because - again - I’ve only just met them and it’s kind of a rude question) but the school does have male changing facilities if required.
Do I understand correctly, Quinn doesn’t identify as male or female?
If that is accurate I feel they should be allowed to remain on the team.
If they are now identifying as male, then I really don’t know and would welcome some more knowledgeable people to chime in.
My gut feeling is if now identifying as male probably not.
If taking steps to transition, especially hormones that might increase performance, then no.
If someone is a male at birth, but then identifies as female, they get to play on the women’s team.
If someone is female at birth, but stops identifying as female, they still get to play on the women’s team because they once were female at one point.
Only someone is male at birth and never identifies as a woman at any point would be disqualified from being on the team.
According to the Wiki page, Quinn has come out as transgender non-binary, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to say what that means.
Here is my opinion on that – we think of teams as being men’s or women’s, but I think most of them are really anyone or women’s. If a ciswoman, for example, could qualify for a men’s basketball team, there’s no issue with her playing for the team. There has been at least one woman drafted by the NBA. The women’s team is the restricted team, and allows only women.
Since Quinn has come out as not-a-woman, I think (but am willing to be convinced otherwise) that they should be disqualified from playing for the women’s team. (Obviously, the Canadian soccer federation disagrees, and I’m fine with that, just thinking through the implications)
Of course, if they (Quinn) were taking hormones to transition to a man, they would be disqualified on doping grounds.
The word “woman” has multiple meanings, two of which are:
An adult of the sex which is typically associated with childbearing
A person who identifies as a woman
She still meets the first definition even if she doesn’t meet the second. IMHO, women’s sports are really designed around the first definition much more than the second. It seems okay to me for someone to play in women’s sports as long as they were assigned female at birth regardless of how they identify. Of course, medical transition can greatly complicate things and may disqualify a person because of banned substances, but that’s not the case here. Quinn was AFAB but doesn’t identify as a woman. I don’t see a problem with them playing on women’s teams.
That is exactly the way it works in bridge (as well, I believe, as chess). There have always been women playing at the highest level (Charles Goren’s partner was Helen Sobel) but there are tournaments restricted to women. This of course does not bear on your OP, which I am somewhat uncomfortable with, although I did agree with your posting it because I was interested in the responses.
Just an aside: there is a trans man on the women’s weightlifting team (not sure which country). One might think they (I have no idea if that’s the proper pronoun) would have an advantage because of upper body strength, but one would be sadly mistaken; they didn’t even place in the medals.
The problem with your logic is that “stops identifying as female” is not functionally the same as “identifies as male”, so your two examples are not mirror images. You can stop identifying as female in terms of social roles and gender identities, without undergoing any physical changes such as would occur with hormone therapy, and probably without adopting any stereotypical “male” attributes. The thing a lot of people have trouble with is that gender identity is far more complicated than they realize, and so trying to find simple solutions is very difficult. There simply will not be a one-size-fits-all answer that will produce perfect results in all cases.
Making their country’s Olympic team suggests they are one of the 3- 4 best people in their country in that class. Just because they aren’t one of the 3 best in the world doesn’t mean they aren’t advantaged compared to other women.
As long as they (Quinn as well any other individual) are not taking male hormones, they (someone who is identified as a female at birth) should be allowed to compete on the women’s team. I’ll avoid going into my reasons for holding this opinion to respect the OPs directive to stick to this particular topic.
ETA: Whether they wish to do so is of course another issue, and my guess is that there are trans men who would prefer to play on the men’s team despite being at a physiologic disadvantage. In those cases I would also be in favor of the decision made by those people.
I suggest this thread focus on the Olympics and other high-level sports. I feel like the issues at, say, a girl scout game in elementary school are different from the issues regarding uber-competitive arenas like the Olympics or professional sports.
