Where on earth did you get the idea that North Korea wanted to actually USE their nukes? That’s not at all what I said.
They want to build a nuke program because it is the one thing they can do to put pressure on the US. Let me ask you this: what would happen to US sanctions against Russia if Vladimir Putin decided it was in his interests to start shooting ICBM “tests” over Europe? That would get the US’ attention, would it not? That would scare the shit out of Europe, would it not? It would also be true that the US would NOT think about a preemptive first strike to deal with Russia because it would be understood that any attack would be met with retaliation that could inflict massive damage against us.
That is the point. Not that they would attack us first but that they could cause mischief and raise hell and put pressure on us to remove sanctions. Let me ask you a question: why did the US remove missiles from Turkey in October of 1962?
Well, I’m trying to figure out what you are saying. You seem to be talking about how we need to drop the sanctions and stop playing hardball because of the threat, but now you are saying, no, they won’t use them anyway.
No, there are other things they could do to improve their situation. They don’t NEED to put pressure on the US to do that. In fact, what they have done has been the opposite of putting pressure on the US, since they have managed to alienate pretty much every country on earth to a greater or lesser degree BECAUSE of how they have pursued nukes and other things. This allows the US a free hand to ramp up the pressure, not force us to stop applying it. Think about it…if North Korea was popular and non-threatening then the narrative would be all about the big US bully, and country’s would basically ignore what we are doing and do their own thing. Look at Iran…they aren’t exactly warm and cuddly, yet a lot of country’s ARE ignoring the US on this and sticking to their original agreements.
I’m unsure of what you are getting at with the rest there. The US did put sanctions on Russia, despite them having nukes. And we’ve maintained them. And, frankly, for all their antics, Russia hasn’t been in the same league, provocation wise, as North Korea has been.
Easy…because we did a secret, under the table deal with the Russians, after forcing them overtly to take their nukes out of Cuba. I don’t think this is applicable to North Korea, though they are free to try and do a big ‘we’ll denuclearize’ in exchange for the US to…do something. Remove our nukes from Guam? Not sure. If there was a deal and North Korea agreed to denuclearize they would get everything they want, after all, which is for the US to remove the sanctions and blocks on them being able to trade freely and expand their economy. But if they don’t, then they basically have to hope that the next US president is a Democrat and willing to do another temporary deal with them until our political worm turns again. If they want a solid, lasting deal, then they will have to give up their nuclear program and missile tests.
Ironically, if they did, it would free up more money they could spend on conventional toys and new re-education camps and the like, because if they didn’t have nukes no one would really care what they do. Look at China.
Yes, you’ve asserted that masterfully. No, I’m kidding…you haven’t at all except in your own mind. But sure, we are done. Thanks for playing, here is your board game version of the SDMB and a nice ceramic dog…
So…we aren’t done then? Instead of these silly antics, why not take a shot at an actual argument and discussion? Or, you could come back with calling me chief or something along those lines.
As are you. Only my shit is consistent and you’ve yet to really rebut it. Mainly, you’ve told me how I don’t understand…a theme you’ve repeated several times. You haven’t actually tried, that I can see, to address my own points. I have, actually, tried to address yours, though obviously not to your satisfaction. I understand that we look at this completely different, since we are in similar discussions across multiple threads with this same theme right now. But it could be a rational and measured discussion. You just don’t seem to want that. Shrug. That’s fine, I’m good for just agreeing to disagree, or you going off in a huff or whatever.
asahi and XT, unless you have factual information supporting logical arguments, just drop the exchange and knock it off with the personal jabs. It is going to get one or both of you Warnings if this keeps up. And yes, I recognize that one of you is behaving slightly more in good faith, but you both keep throwing out the personal digs. Stop it.
Even without post #855, this would be not appropriate. If you have a problem with another poster, take it to the Pit. Do not carry some grudge from thread to thread.
The real story: North Korea now has a sub that has the capacity to carry and launch nuclear weapons.
All of the evidence the last few days, weeks, months and beyond, from Iran to North Korea, supports my hypotheses, which is that bellicosity is a response to American-imposed sanctions and that militarism isn’t really a desire for conflict with the US but rather, a form of counter-pressure. If we at least hold out the possibility that we can suspend sanctions while we negotiate, we might get somewhere. But the American foreign policy playbook, which posters like XT and Ravenman apparently subscribe to, stipulates that Americans can only talk and sanctions can only be removed when the opposition is so weakened, so prostrate that it begs to come to the table. My assertion is that other countries have learned from the lesson of Iraq: don’t be the sucker that falls for American pledges to act in good faith. Come to the negotiating table with some real power and real counter-pressure in hand.
Speaking of North Korea, let’s see Trump work his deal making magic with this one:
“OK, which side here wants to declare bankruptcy? That’s how I roll!”
MOSCOW/SEOUL (Reuters) - Russia on Wednesday accused North Korea of illegally detaining one of its fishing vessels and said it would freeze talks with Pyongyang on fisheries cooperation until the issue was resolved, the RIA news agency reported.
My guess is that Russian fishermen were probably aggressively fishing in areas that North Korea considers to be its own turf and North Korea wanted to send a message to the sailors, not so much Russia generally. It would be in North Korea’s interests not to piss off Russia, considering how they need Russia’s helping in softening the blow of US sanctions.
No, I’m kidding…you haven’t at all except in your own mind. But sure, we are done. Thanks for playing, here is your board game version of the SDMB and a nice ceramic dog…