I guess the way I see it is this: it’s human nature to want to see order in things. IMO, it’s what has separated us from less sentient beings, and, combined with opposable thumbs and a bipedal gait, what led to our evolution as the dominant species.
While some people (myself included) prefer the order of the scientific method, and of pure reason and rigorous examination, religion arose in the absence of scientific knowledge. Despite millenia of scientific advancements since the rise of the worlds current primary religions, even today many people need the order that religion provides, especially regarding some of the big questions that science still has no answer for, like what happens after death, and what our purpose here on earth is.
Then there are societal advantages - most religions offer a social hierarchy and strong moral and cultural leadership that fulfills a latent desire for such deep in the human psyche that may be difficult to obtain elsewhere. It also provides what some call an “altruistic imperative” to do works of charity, that frankly can be difficult to justify using reason alone.
There’s also the simple fact that most people have at least somewhat of a religious upbringing - its simply not common for people to abandond the belief system they were raised with.
Compound these and other societal factors, and it makes a lot of sense that most people believe in some form of religion.
I just really garbled this post - that’s what happens when I start to write a reply, then get distracted and come back to it an hour later and don’t do a full proof-read.
I should amend the bolded statement to read:
“I would say the percentage of active atheist posters on this board who are also truly anti-religious is somewhere around 10%.”
Otherwise it appears I think that 10% of all anti-religious atheists are posters on this board, and that sounds just a bit off.
It’s not a fallacy, it’s the simple truth. That’s why they call it “faith” after all; religion requires you to turn off your mind, at least towards its basic claims.
You seem to feel that anyone who believes (what, maybe 80-90% of the population, including some of the world’s preeminent scientists, artists, and thinkers) have “turned off their minds”.
Maybe you can elaborate - do you care to actually offer anything of substance here? Would you want to refute anything I said here for instance, regarding the human tendency toward faith?
Oh, I absolutely agree - my reply to Der Trihs must have crossed yours. Which to me is more evidence that religion is not without its value to society - it has inspired great thoughts, acts, and works.
Folks tend to forget that one of the most fertile periods of scientific advancement prior to the Industrial Revolution, the Islamic Golden Age, was fostered by the expansion of Islam between the 8th and 16th centuries. The real irony is that modern Islam (right or wrong) is perceived by many on both the right and the left as a somewhat backward, oppressive culture lacking in scientific curiosity.
By definition, or they wouldn’t be religious. If some scientist took the Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously would you consider worshiping the FSM a belief worthy of respect? Or would you just think he’s being idiotic? Because worshiping the Flying Spaghetti Monster is no stupider than worshiping any other god.
As you wish:
Want, yes. Do they need it? no.
Nonsense. Religion is destructive to society and doesn’t make people any more charitable. And pretending kindness in order to suck people into your religion isn’t any more “altruism” than some corporation making a show of charity to get their name in the news. Advertising and charity are not the same thing.
Your fallacy is assuming a church and a corporation are equivalent - one is an institution that is often ingrained in the history and culture of its adherents. The other makes widgets or cars or Fleshlights. Folks don’t simply drop their religion once they gain the power of reason, like they’d change brands of deoderant. By equating one with another, you really do show a lack of understanding of that which you claim to oppose, revealing the shallow nature of your worldview.
I’m curious, do you even like any of the religious folks that you know? Unless you work freelance web design in an abandoned salt mine, and order pizza online every day, people of faith are your coworkers and neighbors, and the folks who bag your groceries and do your taxes. Do you just tolerate their existence, or do you actually know and care for any of these folks?
Or I think that people who don’t drop religion like a brand of deodorant that isn’t working are being foolish.
And so far we have “Not respecting religion means you have a shallow worldview”, “religion is necessary” and “religious people are morally superior”. Want to go for “atheism = communism therefore atheists are mass murderers”? That one is a classic.
The point is, religion is working for many of them - it provides them exactly what they need, and they’d be foolish to drop what works for them.
No, I’m pretty sure what I’m saying is “not respecting all religious people means you have a shallow worldview”.
For many people, yes. Who am I to tell them what they need?
And where did I say “religious people are morally superior”? I said religion offers a moral, cultural, and social framework that many people need - yes, I’ll say it again, they need it, not want it as you feel. And not out of any particular weakness - I strongly feel, and nothing you’ve said convinces me otherwise, that humans have an innate, instinctive need for much of what religion has to offer, that can be difficult to find in the secular world. Structure, leadership, morality, an overall framework to build their own personal worldview on, take your pick.
Folks like me and you have found reason and logic to provide a better framework than religion - oh, wait, maybe that’s just me.
You can stop flogging that old one-liner, dude. Sure, some folks have said as such. Maybe even some very powerful folks at some point (Eisenhower comes to mind).
So f***ing what? While I do feel that atheism is misunderstood (and I admit, the last time you and I got into it on religion, I was remarking on the unlikely stigma I faced coming out as an atheist), that doesn’t equate to “all religious people believe the very worst things said about atheism, because at some point, a religious person said them!” That’s just 5th-grade circular logic. Can’t you come up with something more well-thought out than that? Seriously, I feel like I’ve brought a laptop to an abacus fight here.
Since I’ve stuck with this for so long, I think I deserve an answer to the second part of my last post - how do you feel about all those religious folks you encounter day-to-day? Do you reverse-proselytize to them every day? Do you paste on a smile? Or do you just pretend they don’t exist, and then boil over with anger when you get home at the end of the day, and lock your door against all those oppressing masses shoving crosses in your face and trying to forcefully convert you?
In short, have you never met a religious person you liked and respected?
Just as a data point, my religious group (progressive Judaism) does both (well, except for the “faith” part, depending on who you ask), and I find it’s lovely. I’m sure there are many other religious branches that cover both “belonging-to-something-huge-and-historic” and encourage, even require, thorough and ongoing questioning, doubt and thoughtfulness.
That’s ridiculous; religion is a plague upon humanity; it causes immense suffering, is irrational, and is simply factually wrong. It’s not some harmless little quirk, nor is it just a matter of opinion.
The same person who is claiming that they do need religion.
You are saying they need lies; that is definitely a weakness. Lies is all that religion has to offer. And the evidence is simply against you; the presence of religion is correlated with increasing social dysfunction, not less. The idea that religion is good for people is just propaganda.
Since it comes up again and again and again, no I really can’t.
I avoid speaking beyond business with them whenever possible and certainly avoid speaking of religion to them. They are irrational, untrustworthy and potentially dangerous. There are probably more people on the SDMB who know that I’m an atheist than there are anywhere else.
Who do you find, in the real world, to talk about things besides business with? To talk about art, music, moveis? About things you like to do with your spare time? About travel? About women? About food? Are none of them religious?
(Let’s see if I can nail the quote tags in one go)
My best friend - the one who was the impetus for this thread (warning, thread is three years old, please don’t revive - I really don’t want to be patient zero for the great SDMB zombie outbreak of 2011.:D) - is Quaker, and he consciously chose it later in life after being kicked out of the Mormon church for being gay. As a teen, his lifelong faith rejected him for something that was beyond his control, and his church’s elder urged his family to distance themselves from him (they politely told their elder to screw off - I’ve met most of his family, and they’re pretty awesome people).
Yet after all that, he sought out a place of worship that would accept him for who he is, instead of rejecting faith altogether. He’s one of the smartest, most compassionate, people I know, and his a faith that practices selfless acts, pacificism, and acceptance - is he or his chosen faith a plague on humanity?
Not to mention most of the world’s great historical figures. The big trifecta of great historical figures of the 20th century - MLK, Ghandi, and Einstein - come to mind immediately. But basically take all the worlds great thinkers, and carve out 25% conservatively to represent the atheists, and what you have left are all people of some kind of faith. Do you really want to claim that their faith, which in many cases is a driving factor behind their acheivements, is a plague on humanity? Many smarter people than you or I believe. That doesn’t make me believe, but it is enough for me to respect their faith.
Unlike you, I wouldn’t presume to tell them what they need or don’t need. It should be pretty damn clear by now: I’m not telling them they need religion, I’m telling you they need religion.
You keep trotting out this study, but I’ve pored over it, and all it shows is that the US blows the bottom of the curve out on quality of life in developed democracies. If you doubt me, look at Italy and Ireland - toward the bottom or middle of the pack in most metrics, and both deeply Catholic countries.
One could easily interpret this study to say that America’s fragmented belief system is more to blame than the sheer percentage of users, and that countries with a longer religious tradition, and more homogenous faith, are better off.
But I’m not saying that at all - I think the US dominates that study because our country is simply pretty f**ked up in a lot of ways not directly related to religion, and very much related to our profit-driven economy and the deep, wide class divide, combined with our lack of any kind of real universal health care. But I’m not going to get into that here.
Am I trying to say religion can never have deleterious effects on a society? Not at all - we all know that people can be motivated by their faith or their religious leaders to do and believe bad things. The Spanish Inquisition for one, the Crusades for another, the ongoing battles against gay rights for a third, and we could pick a hundred more examples before having to go to Wikipedia. But as long as petty people have egos, prejudices, and care about power and control, bad shit’s gonna go down, whether it’s in the guise of faith, revenge, or greed.
I’m not going to deny that religion has its place in society, just because religion can sometimes lead to bad things happening. I’ll say it again: many people from all walks of life, both great and average, have a need for what religion can provide. And I can’t presume to deny them that, even if I believe differently than them.
“It comes up again and again and again” - where?!? Of all the times I’ve seen atheists being equated to communists on this board, it’s always been you trotting out this old saw.
I really do feel sorry for you - some of the best, brightest, and most caring people I know are religious. You really must be a miserable person to feel the way you do.
Just noticed this - somehow the bolded section snuck in from something else I was composing, via the clipboard. It should read:
“One could easily interpret this study to say that America’s fragmented belief system is more to blame, and that countries with a longer religious tradition, and more homogenous faith, are better off.”
I’m atheist and probably something like pro-religion. I think it’s fascinating and beautiful and a little inspirational, especially when faith drives people to take care of others. But I don’t want it all up in my government.
The stuff like prejudice and bigotry - that’s people. I don’t really associate it with religion. I think bigots just use religion to sanction their ignorance.
The source report is a pretty fascinating read, if you’re into that kind of thing. But USA Today and Slate’s take on it were both a bit skewed, since they’re both going for a kind of sensationalist slant.
According to the report, 28% of respondents indicated they had changed or dropped the religion they were raised in. This still leaves 72% of people sticking with their faith, which kind of proves my point. Unless you want to count Protestants changing affiliation - I’m ambivalent about considering that a real change in religion, since they’re still sticking with Christianity.
But hey, if a significant percentage of those folks are embracing a humanist, godless worldview, I’m not gonna complain.
