You are missing a very important part to my objection to the “cost/benefit” analysis. I didn’t say that people shouldn’t think about whether they are capable of being parents. I object to the analysis as a balance between cost and benefit. There is no balancing involved. Either one is capable of being a parent or they aren’t. Period. If one can’t afford it then don’t have kids. If one isn’t willing then don’t have kids. If one isn’t psychologically inclined to be a parent then don’t have kids. There is no “benefit” side that could possibly balance out any of these “costs”. The assertion that one needs to look for “benefits” to balance out the costs is absurd.
FWIW, I did do an analysis of whether we were prepared to be parents before having kids, just not a cost/benefit analysis.
Only if one is actually incapable of dealing with children, as opposed to just preferring not to. It’s not as though I rule out socializing with people who have children, I just prefer to do it in their absence, whenever possible.
I simply don’t enjoy children, and I prefer to spend my time with grownups, doing and talking about grownup things. I don’t see why this is something I should feel badly about, or why people’s panties get so very bunched.
There is no reason to feel bad about it, and my panties at least remain unbunched.
As I’ve said a couple of times now, it’s a choice, and really no-one elses’ business. I just think that any set of dislikes that alienates one from one’s family, as Jimbo has said it does, is limiting.
I have a gay friend who feels much the same way about women - doesn’t like them, and prefers not to have them around. It’s limiting.
Yes, parents can talk about other subjects, but the subject of kids inevitably comes up, particularly if said children are around during the conversation.
And no, it is not a crippling problem, anymore than choosing not to hang out with stupid people is a crippling problem, given that there are so many stupid people wandering the streets. One simply has to choose one’s battles, so to speak. I know, for example, that if I decide to pay my parents a visit, there is a good chance that the nephews will be there and that will be the entire focus of the visit. And I also know that if the kids aren’t there, that I’m going to get a lengthy update on how they’re doing at some point, whether I want to know or not. That’s hardly crippling. Annoying perhaps, limiting maybe, but hardly crippling.
I’m sure it is, since there are far fewer places where one is unlikely to encounter women than where one is unlikely to encounter children. But I’m sure he knows where those few places are.
Actually, he’s settled down with his partner and sorta sworn off those places lately.
He’s my age - over 40 - and I joke with him that being a gay guy is better than being hetero when you are young, but after 40 it’s the other way around … then he punches me.
You most certainly can. It’s because they fail to acknowledge that others have different situations and their own set of reasons. I do not for one second think my reasons for having kids apply to anyone but myself. I have not posted (AFAIK) any of my reasons for having kids in this thread for that reason. I have no burning desire to “convert” anyone.
Neither do we. I’m a fan of propagation of the species, on the whole. Do you really not see a difference between “I don’t especially care for the company of children.” and “Seriously guys, how can we get people to stop breeding?”
But isn’t this thread about "Not Having Children . . . ". I just checked the title again, and sure enough, that’s what it said. You are free of course to start a thread about having children and how much you enjoy it, however, the OP specifically started this thread about “Not Having Children. . .”
The people posting in this thread aren’t trying to convert anyone, as far as I can see, but they are responding to the OP, which is about not having children. Please start a thread about having children, then if we come in and start talking about the joys of not having children, you will have a legitimate gripe.
I’m not sure who you’re talking about here. As far as I know, there is one poster on this board, the always-zany ZPG Zealot who believes that children are always an affirmative evil.
I think people who want kids, should have them. And leave me be about my life choices.
ETA: In the sense that I am trying to convert people, I am trying to convert them into saying “Ah, no kids? That’s one way to live.” vs what they actually say, which is “You are selfish/you are unfeminine/you will die alone and miserable/there is something wrong with you/ are too immature to understand the Truth/ you should get help/etc.”
Heavens. I have an agenda? I didn’t know that. If I do, I try not to push it on anyone. However, there is absolutely a faction of parents who had kids just because it was the next thing to do - grow up, go to college, get a job, get married, have children, buy a house. If they see from my example that there is an alternative and it’s OK, then I see no harm in that. If because of my example somebody who really wasn’t sure about having kids delays it a bit, or someone who didn’t really want to have kids but was caving to pressure stands up a but, then I see no problem with it either.
And as otternell says, this thread is strictly about “not having children and your outlook on life”. You know something? Some of us may have regretted not having children for brief moments. It’s not like we ALL stand here and say “I AM RIGHT HEAR ME ROAR.” Even I have had my doubts, mostly when I see the status, for example, my sister-in-law gets just because she made two babies. Even though my in-laws really don’t like her at all.
But most of the time, we are happy with our choices. And that is what this thread is all about. And I resent the very, very strong implication that we should not even be allowed to celebrate not having children - a choice we made - that we should forever be kowtowing to parents and not mentioning any of the joys we have gotten from not having them, not even when asked, because we might offend a parent or be seen to be pushing our agenda.
I am joyously childfree. I do not feel guilty at all.
It’s exactly because everyone has their own situation and set of reasons that opinions differ on this. Is anyone really worried that someone who loves kids and wants to be a parent is going to read this thread and think “Hey, kids really ARE a pain in the ass! What the hell was I thinking?”
I mean, they’ll eventually think that of course, but only after they’ve had kids.
Did you ever see that condom commercial? There is this youngish guy in a store, with his son. The son kicks up a fuss about wanting a sweetie or something, and goes into full-on tantrum mode, kicking and screaming and pounding the floor. All of the other patrons are looking on and the dad looks like he wants to just crawl into the floor.
Then it shows the name and brand of the condoms, and a picture. It cracks me up every time. I guess parents think that’s pretty offensive, implying if he wrapped his tool he wouldn’t have had that little hellion, because supposedly it was banned in a bunch of places.
rayxi, it’s ironic that you are accusing childfree people of doing the same things that parents with no sense of identity beyond their kids do in our society. If anyone pushes an agenda and tries to convert people, it’s them. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve had a conversation with someone where they tried to tell me that I had to have kids, and told me the ways I was defective for not wanting them. Do you know how many times I’ve had a conversation where I tried to convince someone else to not have kids? That would be zero. I think you are mistaking people who don’t worship children the way you’ve come to expect in our modern society for people who hate kids and want them to all die. Indifference to children is not a crime (yet).
ETA: I forgot to say, you’re not seeing the real picture here online. In real life, most childfree people don’t volunteer the information. You probably know people who are childfree by choice, and they’ve never told you if you didn’t specifically ask, because we don’t care for the responses we get.
Or the infant’s onesie with “Daddy shoulda asked for a BJ” on the front.
Though to my mind, a parent who doesn’t want kids, or regrets having them - that’s a tragedy, in that the kid is gonna grow up with serious issues (they will inevitably find out, and feel hurt).
Well, yes, since my entire point was that my disliking children comes from disliking the behavior they commonly engage in, not because it has a hell of a lot to do with their age. I then gave an example which illustrated that my dislike of said behavior isn’t rooted in how old you are, just in the behavior itself. I’m not sure what your point is.
Not really. First of all, my family gets it, and they don’t push, I don’t push, and for the one time of year I actually see the nieces and nephews, it’s tolerable in the way that families are (particularly since the kids are getting older and are less prone to problematic behavior).
And secondly, sure, I’m not interested in talking about kids. I’m not interested in talking about NASCAR, either. Know what I do? I hang out in huge artist/hippie communities where the topics never come up. We do talk about art, though… which is something I’m interested in.
Oh, come on. Of course there are benefits to engaging in a relationship, or having kids. If there weren’t, no one would do it. And while it’s true that there’s no benefit that can or should outweigh certain costs, this is true in any cost/benefit analysis. If I want that $80 pair of boots, and I have $40 in my bank account, there’s no benefit that’s going to outweigh the cost, so I shouldn’t get them. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t an analysis going on, nor does it mean every analysis is cut and dried. Maybe someone wants kids, but isn’t sure they’re financially stable enough to support them yet. That’s going to require a cost/benefit analysis… and maybe the results are choosing to sacrifice satellite TV so you can have kids now (because the benefits are high enough that you don’t want to wait), or maybe it’s choosing to wait five more years.
On the other hand, choosing to forgo the cost/benefit analysis entirely, and plunging ahead when it turns out you don’t have enough money (or time, or patience, or support structure outside of yourself, or any of dozens of other things which could make or break the life of a potential child, and may or may not exist to varying degrees in someone’s life, which may or may not change over time… etc. etc. etc.) to support your kids properly, is a pretty shitty thing to do to your kids. Which is why cost/benefit is so important.
And/or, we just don’t care. My life doesn’t revolve around children, they’re not even substantially present in my life, so it’s not something that I generally bring up as a topic of conversation (see NASCAR, above). My interests lie elsewhere, so I talk about that stuff instead.
