Anna Akana posted a YouTube video on this subject (warning: Akana uses a NSFW word to describe having sex).
As a man, I feel I’m on the outside looking in on this issue. I have never worried that a woman would lose respect for me if we had sex too early in the relationship. And I don’t think it’s a common concern for other men.
So I’m asking for a female perspective. Why is this a concern for some women?
Because there are many men who have double standards when it comes to sex and would refuse to have a relationship with a woman if she has sex with them early.
I don’t think it’s such a loss for those women but apparently many women would still want to be with a man who has such double standards.
There’s no way that this could go wrong.
Bingo. Even more puzzling, how do these men justify judging women for the very same behavior they’re eagerly participating in? They grumble about women not putting out and when they do they shame these women for giving them what they want.
If “sluts” didn’t exist, misogynists would be miserable and loathe women for depriving them of sex. But then they hate women for making it possible for them to have a sex life. The more I attempt to understand this phenomenon the more I’m confused.
Why should it? Women are acknowledging this idea exists among women. So how is it a problem to ask them about it?
The point is these men are misogynists. They don’t have a problem with women who have sex on the first date. They have a problem with all women. If a woman doesn’t have sex on the first date, he’ll just invent some other reason to complain about her. I certainly won’t dispute that there are men like this.
But are there men who have “rules”? Is there a man who’ll think a woman is wrong to have sex on the first date but will think she’s okay if she waits until the third date? I can’t imagine a man like that. If a man thinks sex will be okay in two weeks, he’s going to think it’ll be okay today. And if he thinks sex is wrong today, he’s still going to think it’s wrong in two weeks.
I would think men who prefer to take it slow (yes, they do exist) won’t be down for sex early in the relationship much less on the first date, and probably won’t think highly of a woman who feels otherwise, but such a person won’t magically be ready only on the third date. You barely know more about someone on the third date than on the first, so I can’t imagine someone would think they’re oh-so virtuous for waiting two more whole dates. Where’s the logic in that?
I think the issue is that what people want in the short term is often very different than what they want in the long run.
In the short term, a man may want sex on the 1st date, yet recognize that a woman who would agree to that, may not be what he wants in in a longterm relationship or marriage. It might be akin to a woman who likes an expensive gift and an expensive dinner on the 1st date, yet recognize that a man who would actually do that, may not be good at handling personal finances longterm.
I’m also reminded of the quote by Groucho Marx (or someone,) “I would not want to join any club that would have me!” (Something of that sort)
I think the idea from those men may sometimes be: “If she had sex with me that quickly, how many men has she had sex with?” Sex and genders are two areas where it’s common for people to have unreflective or contradictory rules and attitudes which are based on a mix of familiarity, convenience and insecurities.
I can see a woman being hesitant to have sex early even if they wouldn’t want to have a relationship with a man who would reject her for having sex early; It must be hurtful to get the impression that things are going well, start to become emotionally invested and find out that the thing that made you bond with him made him reject you.
What I meant to say, but you said it better. If a woman is willing to have sex on a first date, it’s hard for a man not to conclude that she surely has had sex with many other men, or would/will.
Is it a double standard? Yes, but it is what it is.
I think it may come down to trust. As has been said, a woman who has sex on the first date has likely done it before. A man who pressures for sex on the…oh, fer crying’ out loud…OTFD, may have had it work often enough to expect it.
Let’s not forget that it goes both ways. Plenty of girls expect to OTFD and feel rejected or get angry if the man doesn’t step up.
Personally, I prefer to wait until there’s some kind of a relationship. Believe it or not, I’ve fallen for someone who was a friend first and it was a very long time before the actual relationship started. Then there’s been the flying leap the second time I layed eyes on him. That one lasted twenty- seven years!
As far as respect goes, it kind of depends on the people and the situation. Sometimes the connection is instant, mutual and too strong to resist. I doubt either would feel disrespect in the morning. Then you’ve got the pub crawl gone bad and there’s no respect at all for…um…what was his name again?!
Men and women want different things in relationships/hookups. What’s so confusing about that? Women have been known to shame men for various things, such as their height, their jobs, etc. Men do it for other things. There are differences, either accept them or stay confused and call out everybody as hypocrites.
A fair amount of subtlety involved with this area.
Some good observations so far. The way I’d put one aspect of it, is that most “dating” is a form of scientific investigation. Testing each other in order to find out if you want to do more than just attend events occasionally with company. Sex, and the timing of it, is just ONE of the tests involved.
There was a hint from someone, that there is a sort of culturally programmed process involved. That is, each person is supposed to express interest in the other in various ways at various times, and our culture established both what interests must be expressed, and how they are expressed. All behaviors are used by each person to deduce the character, usefulness, and reliability of the other. Sex only SEEMS to be the most important, because there are so many emotional and physical involvements to it, and because our culture has long deemed it to have a great deal of meaning.
Anyway. A simplified version of how “dating” is supposed to go for most of us in this culture, is that each person signals some level of specific interest in the other; then one (usually the male, still, with caveats) makes some overt move towards the other. Next, each person begins testing the other in various ways. One of those tests, is that, just as the male is supposed to initiate contact (at least officially), the male is also supposed to be the first to attempt sexual intimacy. If he does so too quickly, the female is supposed to rebuff him.
Now, that’s where everything gets murky. If the male “makes his move” poorly, or fails to make it at the right time, he can suffer far more than a momentary rebuff, and be discarded as immature, or too violent or too weird, and so on. If the female performs her rebuff the wrong way, or fails to rebuff at all, depending on the exact guy, his life stage, and the circumstances (it’s all VERY interactive), then she might be discarded for similar complex and varied reasons.
The appearance of hypocrisy about it all, is not actually inherent to the process, but it is common, because very few people actually understand the overall process they are participating in, so they do it all crudely and clumsily. Rather like a lot of human action, really.
It’s not as simple as is commonly portrayed in discussions like this.
I suspect some women want to wait not just because the man will lose respect but for a couple other reasons. If the guy wants a second date then he passes the test for not being into one night stands. Also, it will make the guy appreciate the sex more if it happens after some waiting.
Or maybe some people want to get to know the potential partner better than some other people do before getting physically intimate. Some people are comfortable having sex on the first date, some prefer to date for months before getting to that point. It’s not always about “testing” the other party, sometimes it’s about trust issues or past history or what the person is seeking (short term and sex vs. long-term and a whole suite of things).
As noted, cultural expectations play into a lot of this.
I doubt they want to be with such men, they might just be trying to discover if they are dating such a man before they have sex with him. It’s better to figure it out pre-sex than post-sex.
Australian women are obviously a little more reticent. I have dated women that have been happy to have sex after the first date but am yet to meet one that wants sex while on a first date. Still one can hope.
Because they think penetrating a woman lessens her. Actually, they think being penetrated lessens anyone, which is why they aren’t comfortable with gay men, either, especially ones they suspect of being the receptive partner (i.e., feminine gay men. And I know that’s not how gay relationships work. But those guys don’t.)
Once you perceive sex as something inherently derogatory, you lose respect for people willing to “give it up” cheaply–it suggests either a perverse enjoyment of being degraded, or a pathetic need for attention.
None of that applies to the penetrating partner because they are agreeing to let someone fuck them.
I actually heard a man say he wouldn’t want the kind of woman who has sex on a first date to be the mother of his children, so would not continue to date her. But he still thought he would be an appropriate father, even if he had sex on a first date.
If I wanted to be generous, I could say “well, really, the sex-having is all he knows about her, while he knows all his other traits that make him worthy even if he finds early sex a negative” but I’m not generous, so I say it’s a damn double standard, especially since he considers her unworthy of learning more about if she has sex early.
Realize here, I’m not talking about people who simply perceive sex differently - as something that sex belongs in a committed relationship vs. a fun, casual activity - but rather those that judge others unworthy for doing the exact same things they are doing, and do not judge themselves unworthy for.
I think it depends upon the circumstances of the so called “date”?
For example, have they know each other quite awhile and talked alot on the phone? Then a sort of deep relationship has already been established and they are ready to go to the next step.
How long is this so called “date”? What if they decide to go away for the weekend together? Thats alot different from just a 2-3 hour dinner and a movie date.
Finally, and to be frank, it depends upon the horniness of the woman. Men, we are always up to it. And I do feel that on occasion, women, especially during certain times of the month and after a couple of drinks, are just hot and want a man and are not too picky. I cant really blame her. Sometimes sex is just a physical act when one needs a release.
For example one night I was on the phone with a woman in tech support who (yes this is true) was talking to me from a bar where she was out with friends. Well we talked for nearly an hour while she worked me thru the issue and at the end I asked her if their was anything I could do for her. She said “well… this might be a bit forward…” I then cut her off and said I was engaged. She apologized and said she was a little drunk.