Now I know what its Like to be a Woman (?? for Parents)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I am a dad, I have a 4 year old and a 4 month old and I have noticed that most people assume some things about me, especially when I am with one or both of my kids. They assume that I have no idea how to parent, that I am “babysitting” for mom, that in general I am not really a parent, I am an assistant to a real parent. People like doctors, daycare employees, etc. will talk to my wife as if I am not there, questions I have or comments I make are ignored, or dismissed as irrelevant (not that they sometimes are not irrelevant, but others the same question posed by my wife will be greeted with admiration at its acumen). Grocery clerks wonder “where’s mom?”, like how could I do something as daunting as grocery shopping on my own. To be honest, in the beginning with the first kid, it pissed me off.

I was getting lumped in with those dads who don’t change diapers, don’t enforce rules or instill discipline, don’t get up in the middle of the night, don’t figure out what will be for dinner that is not PB&J, don’t do all of the day to day, moment to moment, often not so glamorous, stuff that parenting can be, dads who in fact “baby-sit” their own children if they take care of them at all. To be clear, I am not looking for kudos because I work hard at being a father, anymore than a mother would get kudos for working hard at being a mother (also known as just being a mother, last time I checked no one notices that), parenting is hard work.
Then I had an epiphany- I was getting a taste of what it was like to be female. To work hard at something and to see that hard work ignored or dismissed. To have everyone look to your partner in decision making. To be resented as “uppity” if you don’t play the role of dimwitted side kick. In the dinner date of life, I was seeing what it was like for the waiter to give the check to the other person with out asking me. Once I realized this, I felt like a total dick, here I was getting all self righteous about not getting the automatic authority I was used to getting as a man. In this one arena in our still fairly misogynistic world, woman are seen as the experts, and they have earned that by being the ones who are doing most of the real parenting most of the time (possibly statistically all of the time if you averaged everybody).

So what the hell is this about other than me patting myself on the back for doing what all moms do with out anyone even noticing and then realizing that I shouldn’t be such a whiny baby about people assuming that I was like most guys?

Couple things, how many dads have noticed the aforementioned dad-dismissal?

What was your reaction? Your spouses or SO’s reaction? (I can imagine two gay men with a kid either being constantly irritated or laughing about the “where’s mommy?” question)

Anyone else agree that it might be a taste of how society treats females?

I am not trying to get into how some mothers will not let a father participate, or that some fathers have jobs that make it difficult to be fully engaged, or that some fathers contribute in other ways, or whatever, those are whole different threads on their own. Lastly, if you are a dad who has to be given an itinerary/day plan by the mom before you take care of the kid/s you may want to sit this one out.

2

Dude, sexist placing was dropped in the 70s. Anything you’re seeing is a reflection of the real differences between men and women, and are you sure you weren’t just being a boob?

AKA, yep, still a ways to go before we’ve realised in the real world the image we keep in our heads.

3

Sounds like you’re on to something. Maybe you can take the analogy further?

4

FWIW, I’ve never really experienced this. And I was home with the kids for some years while my wife worked. Maybe there’s a local or regional angle to this. Where you writing from, friendlessboob?

5

Your analysis of the situation is one that really made me stop and think. It’s true that in society, like it or not, there are stereotypical “gender roles” - in the last x number of years they have been shifting and have been challenged, but we all know what they are, agree or disagree, or whether we personally subscribe to them. I’m highly impressed that you, from the male perspective, have recognized what might be behind the ire you felt at playing second fiddle (in the doctor’s, etc) eyes to your children’s mother.
FWIW, while many of the roles of parents are shifting and being exchanged, and differ ever wider from family to family (as in the aforementioned “two dads” situation), it takes a lot longer for societal views to change alongside.

BTW, 21yr old female, no kids.

6

Insightful. And IMHO society still has a ways to go.

Back in the days when my children were too young to be left alone while I went to work/school/meetings/whatever the kids themselves would ask me “Who’s babysitting tonight?”
Sometimes I’d tell them “Nobody.”
They’d look up with glee. “We’re staying alone?”
“No, your father will be home.”
“Oh, so Dad’s babysitting.”
“NO! He’s your FATHER. He’s not babysitting! When I’m home with you all day, am I babysitting?”
“No, you’re the Mom.”

7

As a single father, I haven’t so much noticed that I’ve been treated as the “lesser” of the expected two-parent arrangement. If I get any comments at all from strangers when I go shopping with Kizarvexilla, they generally are limited to a) she’s so cute, or b) is she your only one? On very rare occasions someone will ask my daughter “where’s your mommy?” When she replies “In Denver” they’ll usually change the subject.

On the other hand, I have often noted that the industries that thrive on providing products/information for parents are almost exclusively aimed at the mother – parenting magazines in particular. I understand why this is – they’re just trying to appeal to their target audience, and women are assumed to be the primary caregiver – but I sometimes feel annoyed by it. I wonder if anyone has ever (successfully) published a magazine for single fathers? Where the ads refer to Dr. Dad? Where you are treated to page after page of articles and ads that feature a competent man around the house instead of the sit-com doofus? That explain strategies for treating your daughter’s vaginal infections that don’t end up making you feel like (or worse, getting accused of being) a child molester? That help you demystify the enormous unfathomable complexities of gradeschool feminity? Anyone?

8

Very insightful. I hope to see “Member” under your username soon. We could use more of that around here.

I’m a woman and a SAHM, but I’ve seen SAHD’s treated like you describe. I’d never thought of it as a taste of how women are routinely treated, but it does make a lot of sense.

Back when I was working in a store management position, I’d routinely have customers talk literally over my head to the 16 year old (male) kid behind me, as if he could help them with their complaint by virtue of having a penis. Used to piss me off no end. Now, I see people talk over my husband’s head to me about the kids in much the same way.

I have always railed against the term “babysit” to describe times when their father is in charge when I’m away. One does not “babysit” one’s own children, dammit!

9

I completely agree with you, and I’m not male or a parent.

I had a friend whose husband was a stay-at-home father, and she reported the exact same thing you described: pediatricians asking her what time her daughter took a nap, how well she ate at lunch, etc., when she had no earthly idea and her husband was standing right there. Theywould repeatedly ignore him and address her, even though they explained the stay-at-home dad situation.

I on the other hand, really enjoyed my Army days of wearing a uniform with sergeant’s stripes, because it was the first time in my life that someone would see me and assume that I might possibly know something about anything. In contrast, in civilian clothes I get ignored a great deal, even, inexplicably, by salespeople, who really should know better.

I’ve been a civilian for five years and people who work with me know that I know my stuff and in my workplace there is pretty good gender equality, but anywhere else I go, people see me and just think “soccer mom,” and mentally dismiss me.

The one area people might expect me to have expertise in (parenting) is the one area I know nearly nothing about.

So yeah, nice epiphany.

10

“Hope”? Just because he takes care of his kids doesn’t mean he’s emasculated :wink:

11

I get this all the time. People assume that I don’t know jack about how to take care of my own kids, or what’s going on in their lives.

The two that stand out the most:

People who make comments about how brave/heroic/whatever I am for running errands with kids in tow. Um, my wife does it all the time, why isn’t she brave/heroic/whatever for doing so?

The “babysitting” thing. No, I’m not babysitting, I’m being a dad. Like WhyNot , I’d also argue that a child’s parent is never “babysitting.” They’re doing what they’re supposed to do.

Like many in the thread, I like the OP’s analogy too; I’d never thought of it that way before.

12

After the first response, which I still don’t quite follow (is Sage Rat being sarcastic?), I thought maybe this wasn’t as wide spread as I thought. Good to know I am not insane…uh, good to know my insanity is not hindering my ability to communicate, much. Obviously more dads are getting involved than before, I am not even trying to say that’s better (I personally think it is, but wtf do I know), but I still think mom in charge is the norm by a landslide.

Kizarvexius - Yeah, most products are aimed at Mom’s, but again I kind of feel like we earned this one with the low number of fathers who actually are equal contributors. It still pisses me off, but I kind of feel like market forces tell the truth somewhat. I have spent more time than is healthy bitching about the “Dr. Mom” BS… although I think Family Guy is (well, was) hilarious. How about how to not let your daughter be turned into a mindless “Princess” by the Disney War Machine without being accused of wanting to treat her like a boy? On an only tangentially related topic I am really not looking forward to the Karmic payback I am going to get when they (both kids are girls) are teenagers. I was not the nicest guy to teenage girls (hey, they had vaginas, what did they think I wanted from them?) and when they bring back the first guy who is pretending to like them so he can get laid I am going to freaking explode. The third layer of irony is that of course at the time I thought I was a really nice guy and the fact that I lost interest in girls immediately after having sex with them was a coincidence…check me out, I am hijacking my own thread!

MLS - That’s pretty funny, sorry, hope it was meant to be. There was a thing on the radio (alright, NPR, sometimes its good!) about daughters communicating with mothers, where as an aside the guest smart person was saying that often we take attention from mothers for granted where as fathers get this “wow dad is taking time out of his important life to notice me”. Us guys appreciate you putting in the effort, which makes sense considering all we do for you….uh maybe don’t consider that too much. 

Maastricht - Let me guess, you have seen my b cup mansiere (sp?). My milkshake may bring the boys to the yard, but I am still a man….nish woman. Dammit!

WhyNot – Oddly enough I was a member way back in the land before time when it was free to be a member, then between work and kids and huffing paint I had less time to pantomime normal human interaction with other nerds (kidding!)…(only kind of!). Not sure if I am willing to pay to do this…but then again I gave away the Xbox (not such the perfect dad after all) when kid number 2 showed up so maybe I should sign up, the fact that this board is crawling with decent, intelligent humans, many of whom totally disagree with my world view (always a good thing, and FYI a good reason to hang out with old people) is enough to keep me from setting it all on fire. Yeah the “get respect because you have a penis thing” is something I am completely used to, especially working in IT, it is AWESOME, but totally unfair. I used to have a female boss who was really sharp and would get dismissed sometimes in meetings, especially by people who had not worked with her. Fortunately she was also willing to call people out regardless of circumstances, watching her put the smack down on some middle management jackass whose only “skill” was finger pointing and ass coverage was rock solid entertainment. 

Bluethree – Semper Fi! (I know wrong branch, what is the army slogan? Mess with the best, die like the rest, something?) That is interesting, that being a ranking female would give you a taste of what it is like to be a guy, you get respect thrown at you like panties at a Tom Jones show…except you actually want the respect, where as Tom Jones’ third hand panties…maybe not.

Sal Ammoniac - Pacific Northwest of USA, have experienced it on East Coast and in Canada as well. Where you from, Northern California, Russia?

Emeria – I am highly impressed that you, from the 21 year old perspective, are not too drunk to type. Thanks for the patronizing bone throw :).

Ludovic – Ha! Nice.

Manatee – Thanks for the confirmation. The thing that sucks is I know Dads who talk about “babysitting” their own kids. Of course often these are the guys who hit on their co-workers and act like being married is this speeding ticket they are trying to get out of paying. Also you have the most kick ass user name! If you have never heard Jim Gaffigan’s manatee routine you should, it will make your life complete, especially if you then listen to the Hot Pockets routine…Hot Pockets …

I have a nasty confession, while I am on point with the kids (wife calls me “daddy poppins”, mostly to humiliate me, but still) I do not do nearly enough cleaning around the house. Anyone want to start a separate thread on why men suck because they don’t clean - feel free… and I will shut you down with my hammer blows of furious glacial logic as to why that is totally not my cereal bowl.

13

I think the OP is right about it being a taste of how society treats women when they are in non-traditional roles. There are two examples that come to my mind, the first is when I was the manager of a hardware store some years ago. Many people (men and women) would look right past me to find the “helpful hardware MAN”, who would, in turn, come to me to get the answer to the customers’ questions.

The other place that I’ve had problems is at car dealerships. When I buy a car I know exactly what I’m looking for and I usually have a pretty good idea of what I’m going to pay for it. However, I’m either totally ignored when I come to a dealership by myself or I find the sales people constantly addressing their questions and comments to my husband if I bring him along. I imagine this is the same kind of attitude the OP gets in regard to child care.

14

When my partner got custody of his daughter (by previous girlfriend), an enormous number of people seemed to think that I would naturally be spending time raising her, as opposed to him. You know, that I’d quit my job and send HIM to work so he could make the paychecks, while I had to stay home with his little girl, who’d already been taken away from everyone and everything else she knew. Why, I don’t know; she was 5, and obviously too old to still need to be nursing (the only job for which I might be better qualified than her dad)!

My Raven’s a warm and caring guy, and if anyone was ever built for parenthood, he’s it. He loves raising his daughter and there’s no possible way I could ever consider taking that job away from him. Yet even the school can’t seem to get it straight that if there’s a question about the kid’s behavior, they need to talk to him, the parent, not the livein partner who works nights and sees the kid about 15 hours a week.

15

Preach it, brother. I think it can be worse than what women go through, because there isn’t as much social pressure brainwashing the morons that this kind of sexism is wrong, too. They may even be proud of their fault, because they’re getting back at the Oppressor.

I was listed on my son’s play group form as “other,” as in, “Let’s see, there’s the mother . . . but wait! Heather may have two Mommies, or Grandma may live in the home and be involved in the child’s life. We should welcome diversity and leave room for nontraditional families, too.”

They changed the form in a hurry.

In The Nurturing Father, there’s the case of the SAHF who got a visit from a CPS worker with a police escort. They received a report that he was keeping a baby in his apartment, so they came to investigate. Dad told them, yes, his child lived with him, although “keeping” wasn’t exactly the right word. They asked for proof that he was the father, so he proudly pointed to the framed baptismal certificate on a nearby wall. The social worker and the cop then tried to drop through the floor with embarrassment and failed, so they just apologized and left through the front door.

The Nurturing Father should be required reading for primary-caretaker dads who are starting to wonder if they misplaced their dick, or their soul.

16

I haven’t had anything as annoying as the OP happen, but there are still differences in how each gender is treated in certain roles.

I am a house-husband (sometimes I’ll say I’m retired, and if people want to draw the conclusion that I made millions before I was 35 and am living off those millions, well, who am I to correct them?), and I still get a lot of, “Oh, I’d love to have that gig,” from men. Truth be told, it is a pretty cushy job. There’s only one child left at home, and she’s a senior in high school, so it’s not like I’m changing diapers or anything. Still, the average person doesn’t think to be jealous of a woman who stays at home.

Similarly, when people ask my wife what I do, she says I’m a stay-at-home dad (or retired - see above). Often they’ll ask, “yeah, but what does he DO all day.” Again, most people would not ask that if a male was saying his wife was a stay-at-home mom.

I find it pretty amusing. My wife and I are very comfortable in our somewhat unconventional roles, so these comments don’t bother me at all. But it is clear that there are still “traditional” gender roles in people’s minds, and that they don’t always know how to respond to those who do not fit neatly into those pre-assigned roles.

17

Man, I wish I had known this when I was a teenager. Nobody warned me about anything.

Friendlessboob, I really enjoy your wit and I hope you stick around.

18

If it makes you feel any better, yeah, they do. I have a toddler at home and in a couple weeks will have a baby, also. I routinely encounter people who think all I do is watch tv or go shopping all day long. I’m not complaining at all about staying home with my kids, but a lot of people think there’s no work involved.

I think a lot of women who are SAHM with children in school get this, too.

19

I don’t even have any children and I still don’t understand this logic. Hasn’t anyone ever followed a 2 YO around? I’m not sure what’s worse the sudden and rapt screaming because you killed a bug, when yesterday it was OK to do so, or the sudden ominous silence from the next room. :confused: :eek:

20

I am currently a SAHD. Love it. But I get the snide comments all the time. “You’ve got kid duty today?” “Mom needed a break?” “Isn’t it great you took a day off to spend with your son?” I don’t get days off, I don’t get nights off, my wife has an incredibly demanding job, which fortunately pays her enough to allow me to enjoy staying home with our son. Dads are actual parents too. I have 2-3 friends who are in the same boat as I am, unfortunately they’re 3000 miles away, and my brother wishes he could be at home with his son. Other dads let me know how jealous they are of the time I get with my son, but they tell me they don’t want the rest of the job.