I recently read that the New York Yankees have, going into the 2006 season, the most indomitable lineup in the history of the game (also the highest payroll). Historically, has any other baseball team ever had such strong lineup? Thanks.
Maybe on the first but I still like the '27 and '61 Yanks better.
It is not the highest payroll in history, last years was actually higher. They may be playing games and including the luxury tax.
This Year Yanks will have (approximate lineup, middle can go many ways)
Damon, Jeter, ARod, Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui, Posada, Bernie and Cano.
1927 Yanks Murderer’s Row: Let me collect the data.
Argument for 2006 on paper would be Bernie batting instead of a Pitcher. Big adavantage to 2006 team.
Jim
1927 Yanks: Murderer’s Row
HR/RBI/BA/OBA/Slg
C Pat Collins 7/36/.275/.407/.418
1B *Lou Gehrig 47/175/.373/.474/.765
2B Tony Lazzeri 18/102/.309/.383/.482
3B Joe Dugan 2/43/.269/.321/.362
SS #Mark Koenig 3/62/.285/.320/.382
OF *Earle Combs 6/64/.356/.414/.511
OF *Babe Ruth 60/164/.356/.486/.772
OF Bob Meusel 8/103/.337/.393/.510
**Gehrig, Lazzari, Combs & Ruth are HOF. **
The Batting Averages are incredible, The power is great but not as consistant through the line-up. The OBA’s would make opposing pitchers cry.
Combs, Koenig, Ruth, Gehrig, Meusel, Lazzari, Dugan, Collins was the standard lineup.
Base on uniform number as it the original numbers were assigned by the standard position in the lineup.
Jim
Thanks for the correction, WhatExit.
“It is not the highest payroll in history, last years was actually higher.”
(no, bubba?http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7000414#
Smilie)
Since the proof of the OP will probably be posted on the internet in about 20 years, why don’t we move this to IMHO. (Don’t hold your breath–it’s the YANKEES, donchaknow)
samclem GQ moderator
What Exit? That is incredible! 6 of 8 had OBA better than .380 for the year!
How did opposing pitchers get the team out?
Much better than '05 NYY.
Want a neat stat about their performance in the World Series that year? Yeah, they beat the Pirates 4-0. But their BA=.279 The only thing that saved them was their pitcher’s ERA in the Series was 2.00.
Rarely, very Rarely. I have heard old stories that some opposing pitcher would cry and there was some cases of Yankee Flu.
Yankee Flu was a mysterious ailment that would strike down a starter the day of the game he was suppose to pitch against the Yanks, they almost always recovered fully after the left NYC or the Yanks left their town.
Neat stat, scary part is the '27 Yanks had a pretty good staff also.
**Ruth ** of course hit 2 homers, batted .400 and knock in 7 of the 19 runs the Yanks scored. **Gehrig ** settle for 2 doubles and 2 triples and only 4 RBI’s while batting .308
**Wilcy Moore ** who had his Career season as a 30 year old rookie was the #2 star after Ruth. He won the last game and saved the First. His career faded quickly after this one season of 19 wins and WS highlights.
Jim
Hell, the 1927 Athletics has more Hall of Famers than the Yankees that year: Mickey Cochrane, Al Simmons, Ty Cobb, Jimmy Foxx, Zach Wheat, Eddie Collins, and Lefty Grove. Plus Connie Mack managing. (The Yankees had Miller Huggins, so that’s a wash).
Wheat and Collins were over the hill, and Foxx was a raw rookie. The Yankees beat them by 19 games.
The 1929 Athletics won the pennant by 18 games over the Yankees and went on to win two more.
This was about line-ups, give me the 1929 A’s line-up. It is not nearly as good as the '27 Yanks. It won more on pitching if I remember my history correctly.
Jim
I’m intrigued by this claim. It’s frigging nuts. There’s no reason to think the Yankees have even CLOSE to the best lineup in the game’s history. I mean, not even top forty.
The Yankees have a heck of a lineup but aside from the addition of Johnny Damon, it’s not substantially different from the 2005 lineup. Damon is an improvement over Bernie Williams et al., but he’s not exactly Ty Cobb, and it seems likely that some of their players will decline in 2006. Except for Cano, the entire lineup is 30 or older now.
So look at the numbers. The 2005 lineup scored 886 runs, which made them probably the best offense in the league (Boston scored a few more, but in a hitters’ park) but by historical standards it’s not that huge a deal.
In 2005, the Yankees scored 15% more runs than the average American League team. That is, historically speaking, quite unremarkable, and has been bested by many teams. By comparison, the 1927 Yankees scored 28% more runs than the average team. The 1931 Yankees, who didn’t even finish first, scored 34% more.
The 1949 Red Sox, who also did not finish first, scored 24% more. So did the 1909 Pirates.
Or take the Reds. The 1975 Big Red Machine scored 25% more than average. Apparently they weren’t impressed with themselves, because in 1976 they were even more dominant, scoring 33% more. They were eleven percent better than the SECOND PLACE team.
In all likelihood, the 2006 Yankees won’t even have one of the ten best lineups in the history of their own team, unless Johnny Damon hits about 60-70 home runs.
Incidentally, based on my not-so-scientific analysis, I believe the 1976 Reds had the best lineup ever assembled.
Look it over again.
It was the tail end of the pitchers era but 141 HR, 857 Runs scored, .280 Team BA with a .357 OBA is really good but:
76 Reds 141 HR, 857 Runs, .280 BA, .357 OBA
27 Yanks 158 HR, 975 Runs, .307 BA, .381 OBA
39 Yanks 166 HR, 967 Runs, .287 BA, .370 OBA
BTW: the other 7 AL teams combined for 281 HR in 1927
The AL run average for the other 7 was 731.286
So Avg. 1927 AL not Yanks: 40HR, 731 Runs, .285 BA, .348 OBA
{all Research above from www.Baseball-reference.com }
Jim
Even with the luxury tax, this year’s payroll should be lower. I think the Yankees have actually cut their salaries by about $30 million, from about $208m to $175m. I’m sure they’ll pay less luxury tax as a result. That’s how much money was being wasted on Kevin Brown et al.
Some Sports writers are not known for their math ability. Is see you are a New Yorker, think about Maddog for a second from WFAN, he can barely add.
They might be comparing this years complete Salary & Tax to last years Salary only figure, additionally there is an escalator in the luxury tax and the Yanks pay at a higher rate this year despite a lower actual salary total.
That is basically what I meant.
Jim
The number of runs a team scores is only meaningful in terms of how many runs an average team scores. By taking the team’s raw totals out of the league context, you’re losing sight of how good they were.
To use the 1939 Yankees as an example, they scored “only” 26% more runs than the average opposing AL team. (I’m changing my metric here to be fairer to older teams, by eliminating the team in question from the league average.) The 1976 Reds scored 37% more. They look better than the '76 Reds only if you completely ignore the fact that in 1939, the AVERAGE American League team scored eight hundred runs - more runs than any team in the major leagues in 1976, except the Reds, even with those teams playing more games. In fact, the 1939 Yankees are not nearly as good as the '76 Reds.
The Yankees team that’s a match for the '76 Reds is the 1927 Yankees. And it’s very close. However, I’ll still take the Reds, for two reasons:
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They’re still further ahead, 37% to 33%.
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Given the closeness of the comparison, I’ll take the guys who played in a larger, integrated league, and
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The 1927 Yankees were not so much a top-to-bottom lineup as the Reds were; they were, let’s be honest, Babe and Lou and the Gang. Not to take away anything from Earle Combs and Bob Meusel, but that lineup was definitely the 3-4 show.
I think I provided details of the 27 Yanks vs League. Offense is more than scoring runs but it is the best measure. I find the team OBA to be great measurements also. The 27’ Yanks HR vs League avg has never been matched since. This is a form of offensive domination that will never be seen again.
I can’t argue your integration point except to say that in 1927 all the best “White” athletes went to Baseball, in 1970’s many of the best athletes were now playing Basketball and Football instead.
The 27 Yanks were definitely a top to bottom threat, you’ll notice they were all on base at an abnormal rate. Please look at Benches offensive number for 1976. You might have forgotten he had an off year but a great World Series.
Point in your favor you missed:
Now the 1976 Reds ranks first in the NL in every offensive stat, this is awesome.
The 27 Yanks ranked first in every stat except SB and second in doubles.
The Yanks basically changed the way the game was played to power offenses.
Reds were a great team, but nothing revolutionary about it.
Jim
To take some of the heat off the salary issue, lemme throw in a possible interpretation that may make it true. While the Yankee payroll is lower this season, it may very well be true that the lineup is the highest paid in history.
The Yanks picthing staff is much cheaper this year with some bad contracts going away and the addition of Damon likely raises their payroll for just the batting order to a highest level every. I don’t have the figures handy, and you guys can probably round it out, but it’s a way to look at it.
That a good point, Bernie went from $15 million to $2 and that makes up for Damon’s $13. Ruben Sierra was making $1.5. I’ll try to verify the built in contract increases for players like Jeter & Giambi. A-Rod, Sheffield and Posada stay the same. The big difference left is Matsui went from $8 to $13. So I would estimate your point is correct.
Jim
On the Pitching we are not paying Brown this year and that alone saved $15.
Karsay is off the books and Gordon, that more than pays for the relievers picked up.