Office Race/Raise War

[Voyager]

@BlinkingDuck

Exactly. This goes to my post about many companies, for some reason, cannot handle internal promotions well.

Even the company I am at does well in watching salaries…but, for some unknown reason, keeps f-ing up on internal promotions.

Here’s the reason for this, at least in some big companies. I’m not defending it, only explaining it.

Money for raises and money for new hires come out of different buckets. In AT&T we had a raise pool computed based on the total salaries of people in an organization, with a bit extra for kickers for those needing extra raises. Thus it becomes a zero sum game, and giving someone like this the raise she deserved would mean no one else got anything. About the only thing you can say is pointing out to someone in this kind of situation that they are getting twice the raise as anyone else.

The other side effect is that groups like mine, who hired a lot of expensive computer scientists with new PhDs (who in those days got lots of money) was able to give bigger raises than groups who hired chemists who entered with a lot less. The system isn’t set up for outliers, which encourages them to jump ship.

[BlinkingDuck]

@Voyager

Here’s the reason for this, at least in some big companies. I’m not defending it, only explaining it.

Money for raises and money for new hires come out of different buckets. In AT&T we had a raise pool computed based on the total salaries of people in an organization, with a bit extra for kickers for those needing extra raises. Thus it becomes a zero sum game, and giving someone like this the raise she deserved would mean no one else got anything. About the only thing you can say is pointing out to someone in this kind of situation that they are getting twice the raise as anyone else.

The other side effect is that groups like mine, who hired a lot of expensive computer scientists with new PhDs (who in those days got lots of money) was able to give bigger raises than groups who hired chemists who entered with a lot less. The system isn’t set up for outliers, which encourages them to jump ship.

You know, this sounds like it could be true here.

It’s still weird though…they are hiring for the position - the money is obviously earmarked for it…but they won’t give it if it is internal.

I think another contributer is:

You make $40K and being promoted to a position that pays $50K starting? Well…lets offer you $44K - a nice 10% raise. The person takes it because they are young and new and not stupid - they want to work at the higher level job.

They then get promoted again to the job that pays $90K. WELL…$44K to $90K…that is just too much of a leap! Lets offer 25% raise to $55K…they can’t complain about that! It’s 25%!

Then she gets promoted from the $90K to the $180K. $55K to $180K!?! ARE YOU INSANE! That’s over TRIPLE! NOBODY gets TRIPLE their salary! Lets bump it up to $80K That’s a nice raise.

However, people being brought in ARE offered $180K and other companies are offering similar…so she puts in a couple years to show she can do it and jets off to another company that will pay market rate…probably switching jobs or playing round robin with a group of people that were also promoted internally…

[MN_Maenad]

Another argument for not accepting a counteroffer is that often you’ll get a much smaller (or nonexistent) raise the following cycle, for your disloyalty. Sadly, I’ve seen that too.

[BlinkingDuck]

@MN_Maenad

Another argument for not accepting a counteroffer is that often you’ll get a much smaller (or nonexistent) raise the following cycle, for your disloyalty. Sadly, I’ve seen that too.

That happened to me. I actually quit and they countered. I took it. The next pay raise cycle I didn’t receive a raise or a cost of living adjustment because…

“You already have gotten yours”.

I was gone a few months later.

What this company just couldn’t understand is that I demand to be paid market rate. Actually, I am damned good and should be paid more, IMO, but I don’t demand that…but I do demand market rate.

You can have all the ‘good reasons’ in the world for paying me less but don’t be surprised if I leave. I will work my ass off for you but you had damned well better treat me …at least average.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@MN_Maenad

Another argument for not accepting a counteroffer is that often you’ll get a much smaller (or nonexistent) raise the following cycle, for your disloyalty. Sadly, I’ve seen that too.

Then there’s the disloyalty - guess who gets clipped first in the next round of lay-offs?

[SteveG1]

@Cat_Whisperer

Then there’s the disloyalty - guess who gets clipped first in the next round of lay-offs?

Exactly. Because you dared to want “a piece of the pie”. Because you dared to want the same “market rate” that other people are already getting. Your loyalty in accepting whatever they offer, marks you as being disloyal - not that they wouldn’t or couldn’t lay you off regardless…

Even people who had not asked for a raise, or people who had not “put out feelers” can be on the chopping block.

So, where is “loyalty” supposed to fit in here? No where except the loyalty you owe to yourself. It’s a “market system”. Companies want a service from you. You want to be paid for that service. Dollars and cents. You go where the work and the money is. A company can and will lay people off to preserve their bottom line, and loyalty has no place there. So, why demand any loyalty from the person who is a potential lay off, any time things get rough?

There is no loyalty in the equation, from either side. Anyone who chooses “loyalty” over their own personal benefit, security and well being is a fool.

[magellan01]

@Ravenman

If one took a dump in their coffee cups, it may not be viewed as insulting as giving them this book. One wants to minimize the insults upon leaving a job to preserve a good reference.

almost funny, but the fact remains that the Chairman is espousing the ugly collectivist philosophy that the book sheds light upon. This guy needs a lesson in the value of the individual. The book is great in that regard. As is The Fountainhead. So you can leave the tired “Oh, Ayn Rand is so bad” meme for another day.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

We have a staff under 10

Federal (and most state) EEOC regulations do NOT apply to an employer this small.

So the Chairman is flat-out lying to you & the Board. And your boss is not willing to stand up for you.
Start looking for a new job, at market rate. And when you find one, take it, declining any counter offer from this lying company. And when you get that good job as Assistant Director at the new company, steal away the good employees from here (regardless of skin color). That should be easy – they’ll be overworked and harried trying to cover all the stuff you used to do, and glad to get an offer elsewhere. And your new employer will like that you can recruit qualified, experienced people for them.

[BlinkingDuck]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Federal (and most state) EEOC regulations do NOT apply to an employer this small.

So the Chairman is flat-out lying to you & the Board. And your boss is not willing to stand up for you.
Start looking for a new job, at market rate. And when you find one, take it, declining any counter offer from this lying company. And when you get that good job as Assistant Director at the new company, steal away the good employees from here (regardless of skin color). That should be easy – they’ll be overworked and harried trying to cover all the stuff you used to do, and glad to get an offer elsewhere. And your new employer will like that you can recruit qualified, experienced people for them.

What some businesses also don’t understand is ‘training ground’.

If you pay under market rate either in initial hiring or in promotion…you are a training ground. Do NOT bitch and bitch and bitch about this. Do not have throbbing temples complaining about the lack of gratitude of your, now ex, employees.

The economics are simple. This position pays X on average. If you pay less than X then you will get people to take it, but they will be less experienced. You will have to train them and get them experience. However, when they get this experience they will want to be paid X. If you don’t pay them, they will leave.

This means you will save on salaries…but you will constantly have lesser experienced folks that need training/more experience to be truely good at their job. Get used to it. That is the path you chose when you decided to pay less than X.

In addition, even if you do pay them X…the really good ones will still leave. They are really good…they want a little more than X.

Please, for the love of all things holy…STOP YOUR BITCHIN!

{channeling what I wanted to say to the EVP of a previous company when he complained that people only stayed about a year and a half before leaving - it was like clockwork - the people leaving and his bitching.}

[The_Second_Stone]

Show up, collect you $9 per hour and go home. Do only what work can be done at the pace others are doing it.

Look for other work, and when you get it, leave. Two weeks notice maximum.

[Hampshire]

@SteveG1

There is no loyalty in the equation, from either side. Anyone who chooses “loyalty” over their own personal benefit, security and well being is a fool.

Too true. Being loyal to a direct report for immediate perks is one thing but being loyal to a company is foolish.

[Voyager]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Federal (and most state) EEOC regulations do NOT apply to an employer this small.

So the Chairman is flat-out lying to you & the Board. And your boss is not willing to stand up for you.

Size has nothing to do with it. I worked for the biggest company in the world at the time, and did salary reviews, and there was no such guideline. The OP should actually send this whopper into Scott Adams - it is Catbert quality.

[Voyager]

@Hampshire

Too true. Being loyal to a direct report for immediate perks is one thing but being loyal to a company is foolish.

In the last days of the real AT&T, we all had to take career planning classes, and the official line was that you owned your own career. They didn’t even try to pretend loyalty meant anything. The old Bell System and the old monopoly IBM had lifetime employment and thus a good bit of loyalty, but that soon vanished.

[tomndebb]

While this might have started out with the potential for debate, (What is the reality behind some EEOC rules and actions?), it has not developed in that way. This is more of a personal counselling thread and I am going to send to to lodge among similar threads in MPSIMS.

[ /Modding ]

[Dangerosa]

@The_Second_Stone

Show up, collect you $9 per hour and go home. Do only what work can be done at the pace others are doing it.

Look for other work, and when you get it, leave. Two weeks notice maximum.

Yep. And I’d stay away from non-profits, which are a calling. The vast majority of non-profit jobs pay well less than market rate, and very often they can because the employees often value the service they participate in over the salary.

But, despite it being a small office, no one needs to know what you make or when you have money issues or frankly, anything at all about your personal life. You may have put yourself in the spot where although you work hard and aren’t rewarded, they will be happy to see you go because you can’t keep your mouth shut and are handling payroll.

[Markxxx]

If two people are making vastly different pay scales you may have to justify this if a complaint is filed.

So yes the chairman could approve your raise, but if the African American worker goes to the state board and files a discrimination notice, he needs a reason to justify the increase or he’ll be fined and you could lose your job all together and suddenly your reference will not be so good, when you go to look for another job

The fact that you do more work has no merit. Pay scale is based on written job descriptions. The fact you’re willing or able to do more won’t factor in to anything.

The only thing that counts is that two jobs, same description vastly different pays with no justification.

What the chairman would need to do to cover his butt would be to create a new job and then to promote you into it. Then he would also have to hire someone to replace you in your current job as well. Otherwise the new job could be considered an attempt to discriminate.

In reality your boss is most likley lying. He doesn’t want to give you the raise. I myself have been in similar situations, where I’ve done more work than needed. And everytime it comes back to hit me in the face with “We can’t justify giving you more if you were doing it for free prior.”

But the fact is you picked a lousy time to take a stand. There are tons of people out of work taking jobs that pay half their fomer salary.

So start looking for another job now and just be done with it.

Employers right now hold all the cards and you got to suck it up and wear for awhile.

The thing is if you update your resume and start looking even if you don’t find another job, you’ll at least FEEL better.

Times are very hard now and you have to do what you have to do to keep a job. Remember it’s always easier to find a job if you have one. I have actually seen ads that say the only take applications from people presently employed in the position the ad is for.

Finally don’t allow other people to dictate your happiness. So they took advantage of you. Don’t let other people’s actions ruin your day and your life. If you must go in their go in and do the best job you can. If that means cutting back your work, that’s fine. But if you still want to work harder because you can, well than do it.

Don’t let a jerk of a chariman dictate whether or not you’re going to be happy.

Life is too short to be miserable unless you absolutely have to

[Nobody]

Sorry about resurrecting this thread, but I’m really curious if and how it was resolved.

[Omar_Little]

@m.j

Now I asked for almost an double in pay. I feel it’s fair, because I can get that starting elsewhere with my skill level and experience. I even got letters from similar agencies supervisors who know me saying it was fair and they would pay me that.

It’s time for you to get another job.

The Chairman is just negotiating against you. Call his bluff and go get another job, at your market rate.