Let me preface that I’m a full blown supporter of gay rights, gay marriage, gay dogs and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. I’m also female, which I thought might give me some sort of insight into this topic, but alas.
It seems to me that somewhere between the late 90’s and 2003 lesbianism “came out of the closet” so to speak, and now girls with girlfriends are not only much more socially acceptable, but also marketable (see Russian pop band TaTu, who apparently faked their lesbian status as a marketing gimmick). Here’s my questions:
[ul]
[li]Is it really about lesbianiam? Or is it really female bisexuality that’s gained public acceptance? [/li][li]Is it fad-ish? If so, is it more socially acceptable because it is, or is it a fad because its more socially acceptable?[/li][li]I’m 10 years out of high school, but the stories I hear about girls lip locking girls in the lunchroom would have gotten any female I knew in high school ostracised. Has tolerance really gained that much ground in the HS social system? Or am I falling victim to the old-fogey “kids these days” falicies?[/li][li]Is it playing into the male fantasy of two girls at once? I have known women who will make out with other girls at a party, etc. in order to get the attention of the men in the vicinity. Of course in those cases I wouldn’t call it true lesbianism or even true bisexuality, since the main objective is to gain the sexual interest of men, but their activities are “lesbian” in nature. Just because a hetro male finds the sexual activities of two girls exciting, does that somehow mean its less socially offensive and/or threatening than, say, two guys?[/li][/ul]
I hope I’m not coming across as ignorant, I just want to hear the opinions of those who know more about this topic than I do. Gay Dopers and HS Dopers please fill me in on what’s really going on, and how the gay/lesbian community feels about this. If I put myself in the shoes of a life-long lesbian, who has had (in the past) to hide her relationships from society and family due to social unacceptance, I’d be pretty irked that all of a sudden kissing other girls is the “in” thing to do just because some marketing people decided that straight guys love that kind of thing.
My impression after talking with my lesbian compatriots is that a sort of tolerance exists. You’re not likely to get beat up for kissing your girlfriend in the hallway, but you get a lot of verbal disrespect… especially from guys. They think its perfectly all right to turn you from a human being into a sex object who really wants their presence. The infamous “can I watch?” line still comes up with distressing frequency. In a way this total disregard towards your relationships and loving connections can become as internally damaging as outright loathing. At least in the latter case they consider your feeling relevant, albeit as a perceived threat…
So, in other words, its perfectly OK to be bisexual or lesbian… as long as you don’t ever intend to have a relationship with another woman.
The ick factor that causes a lot of guys to rag on gay men doesn’t exist when it comes to lesbians. I figure what you’re talking about is mostly based on the trivial stuff (novelty/ fantasy turn-on vs. actual acceptance). I don’t know if it’s a fad exactly, but maybe it’s just popularization of a fantasy. It’s not like people who are geniunely homophobes are changing their minds.
I would tend to agree using many of my neo-human male coworkers as an example. Its more along the lines of, “a lesbian is a female and I like to have sex with females” so even thought advances are not welcome, a lesbian can still be percieved as a sex object by even the biggest male homophobes. The objectification in some cases is actually more severe because they realize on some level that they are unobtainable making them a “challenge” to their manhood.
I can only address this one. I think many more gays and lesbians are out earlier than they were when you were in school. I’ve been out (of school, that is) for 21 years, and NO ONE was out when I was in school - they wouldn’t have been ostracized, they’d have been tortured. In fact, in college I only knew a very few openly gay people. As an adult, though, I’ve learned that several of my high school friends have come out since then. My friend’s daughter just graduated from HS last year, and I was surprised at how many openly gay people she knows. Recently, one of my daughter’s friends, age 14, told her that he thinks he is gay, and the reaction of MOST of the other kids he knows has been either positive or simply indifferent. Even he kids who reacted negatively had what I would consider to be relatively mild negativity - a bit of name calling and teasing, but no threats or even ostracizing.
Playing to that fantasy is called “Lipstick Lesbianism”, as in; something that girls put on to try and impress men.
In all the cases I’ve ever seen the girls involved would have been absolutely disgusted with the idea of doing anything more than kissing, because that’s, like, totally gross, eew!
:rolleyes:
Do men not find this sort of display demeening/insulting their intelligence?
I was at a party once and two girls came up to me and the dude I was talking to and said, “Want to watch us kiss?”
We both replied with an enthusiastic yes, and they went to town. They were both cute and it was quite a turn on. When they were done, they explained how they weren’t really kissing, they just had their open mouths connected. We explained that we didn’t care, it looked real enough to us.
Okay, that story doesn’t really have a point. Never mind.
Hmm, I dunno, It seems to me like the whole “we have to put a half naked woman on this product or men wont buy it/understand it/be interested in it” mentality.
I just percieve it (Lipstick Lesbianism) as little girls trying to manipulate little boys into being interested in them. And frankly, the people that I’ve spoken to that use this technique most certainly need it, because any other form of attempting to seduce a mate would require a lot more braincells than they possess.
Fine, it’s attractive if you just want to crack one out into someone, but hardly an indicator that you might have found your life partner.
The world’s most deadliest…, I don’t think you have to worry about sounding ignorant here. The feelings and opinions in your OP seem mostly right on to me. My own feelings towards women who put on kissy-kissy “pinkface” performance in public solely to arouse men are, shall we say, unfavorable. I think better of women who are at least honest in their pathetically obvious attention grabbing ploys. Sheesh, just flash your boobs or make a smutty joke or something!
Pretty much, yeah. As far as the media goes, I’ve often said before that as far as mainstream Hollywood goes it’s seems like it’s okay to depict a gay man as long as his homsexuality manifests itself in flamboyant stereoypes and not, you know, dating other men or worse still getting physical with them. At the same time, it’s okay to show two women getting hot ‘n’ heavy with each other, provided they’re not actually attracted to each other. As long as their behavior is some sort of show for the benefit of straight men (either to arouse or shock) and not a sign of real affection then it’s okay.
“Two chicks kissing” has obvious market value, but actual lesbian and bisexual women or characters depicted as such have very little media presence.
And another post I agree with! Although being a lesbian or bisexual woman seems less likely to earn one a brutal beating than being a gay man, every lesbian and bisexual woman I know has been subjected to unwanted sexual advances from men who wanted to watch or join in. Sometimes these advances turn into actual assault. I know many lesbians who’ve been threatened with rape as a “cure” for their orientation. Even on this board I’ve seen people express the idea that sex between two women isn’t “real sex”. I think a lot of people believe at heart that any romantic/sexual relationship between two women is just something they’re doing for the benefit of men or to pass the time until they can find a man.
Lipstick lesbianism has nothing to do with impressing men. A lipstick lesbian is what used to be called “femme.” Dressing in traditionally feminine clothes, using makeup, and so on. Men do not factor into it.
My part of town the meaning is as previously given.
The term for the above is still “femme”, and not being femme automatically makes you “butch”. You get called a “dyke” if you don’t want to let boys watch or join in, or don’t think their repeated requests are funny.
Good innit.
I don’t see the connection. I don’t really find it insulting because I don’t pay attention.
Otto is right about this term not meaning what you’re using it to mean. Women using sex to get guys to pay attention is not exactly a new thing. If this is a new form of it, that doesn’t strike me as a big deal.
Here is a completely different way of thinking about all this.
What is considered “acceptable contact” between MotSS by straights varies a lot from culture to culture. In some arab countries, men go walking down the street hand in hand. Something that would give Jerry Falwell a heart attack.
In the US, the “acceptable contact” customs are quite high. For some men, anything more than a handshake is taboo. No hugs, butt slaps, etc.
All of these customs are just that, customs. If a group of people just decide “We’re going to have different customs now.” That’s all it takes. Poof, old customs thrown out, new ones appear.
So if some straight women decide that kissing semi-romantically is an acceptable custom, it suddenly is.
Other people’s customs are their business. Don’t worry about it.
Ah well, let me appologise for you on behalf of all the people the world over who might use a word in a slightly different context to you.
This is the first I’ve heard of it having a different meaning, and as far as I’m concerned the definition that I heard makes more sence.
Marley, fair enough if it doesn’t bother you. I’ve had conversations with a lot of blokes who get offened by the implication that they are so one-dimentional that it takes a semi-naked woman to get them interested in anything.
Similar to the implication that if a woman uses whatever product then by proxy she’s going to suddenly become as attractive as the woman used to advertise it.
The non-lesbians kissing other non-lesbians (or as in Lord Ashtar’s example, pretending to kiss) purely to titilate men just seems to be another form of playing on men being Very Simple Creatures. Maybe I’m looking at all of this too cynically.
ftg you’ve got a very good point there, but in the case of lesbianism becoming more socially accepable, it very much depends on how attractive the women are.
I am unable to accept your apology, for I am unassured that you will not compound your error by repeating it.
Look, the operative word in the phrase “lipstick lesbian” is lesbian. Lesbians have no interest in attracting men sexually. Thus, the idea that lipstick lesbianism is faux-lesbianism to attract men is flat-out wrong.
