I don’t really know what the title of this post should be, because I haven’t really ‘nailed down’ what exactly I want to discuss. I guess I just have a few questions…
First off; Is it offensive to say “gay women” over “lesbian”? Or is it preferred, (sort of like how female actors would rather be called actors than actresses)?
Secondly, (And this question is why I’m putting this thread in GD); Regarding public perception, who has it more difficult, gays or lesbians? It seems to me that gay men might find it a little more difficult to show public displays of affection. I have a friend who pointed out that the bible talks about a man lying with another man, but doesn’t say anything about women. Though she is bisexual, she seems almost disgusted with the thought of a man with another man. She didn’t say so, but I could tell there was a little bit of “prejudice” there, regarding gay men.
Third; Is there truth to the stereotype that gays and lesbians often don’t get along? I mean, is that a “thing”, or am I miss informed.
Thank you for helping me cure my ignorance on these questions.
Offensive is in the eye of the beholder. Billie Jean King recently said on the Colbert Report that she prefers “gay” to “lesbian.” She is lesbian, she is gay, she is a woman. Purely anecdotally, the gay women I know aren’t particularly fashed about it.
Generally speaking, however, calling someone “a lesbian” is roughly equivalent to calling someone “a gay” or “a Black.” It’s dehumanizing, identifying someone not as a person but as a label. So, yanno, avoid that.
It’s not a contest, of course. I don’t think there’s any question that there exists more societal revulsion to male sexual contact than female. I cant speak to actual numbers, but it certainly seems that more men are turned on by seeing two women together than women are men. The ages-old societal messaging about masculinity and femininity is hard to shake, and we’re simply still much more accepting of seeing two women getting it on than two men.
But that’s about sex, not sexuality, and while male homosexuality is still repulsive to a lot of people, there is an inherent oppression in seeing women as sexual objects, even when it’s hawt. People might be repulsed by two men fucking, and turned on by two women fucking, but the objectification remains the same. And it says a lot that we persist in identifying/classifying both men and women by how they fuck instead of who they are.
Who has it harder? Dunno. Maybe, arguably, gay men. But it’s all part of the same set of problems, and I can’t see that the question really matters in a broad sense.
3. People often do not get along. Stereotypes might sometimes have a basis in fact, but they are rarely correct.
We could as easily ask if there really is a bias among both gay men and women against bisexual people. Maybe, sometimes, on occasion. I’ve experienced it, particularly when I was younger. And when I was younger I inflated it through some really astounding confirmation bias into something much bigger than it was. Sure, there are gay people out there who are contemptuous of bi people. There are gay men who automatically dislike gay women and vice versa. But not all, and not most. Maybe not even many.
People are assholes a lot of the time. The LGBT community is not exempt. But no, there is no active, universal dislike or difficulty getting along.
I believe you’re right when you said: “…there is an inherent oppression in seeing women as sexual objects, even when it’s hawt. People might be repulsed by two men fucking, and turned on by two women fucking, but the objectification remains the same. And it says a lot that we persist in identifying/classifying both men and women by how they fuck instead of who they are.”
I was thinking something similar about the way women are often seen as sex objects, (which is mostly why I asked the question ‘who has it more difficult’ in the first place), but I didn’t know quite how to word it.
Edit: Where did you come up with andros? Are you a fan of the Star Fox video games?
Yeah. I’m not sure there’s any more (or less) societal acceptance of romantic relationships/marriage between two women than between two men…but I do believe the idea of two married women might be a little less threatening overall.
My honest-to-Kdapt name, actually. My father’s family is Greek.
First off; Is it offensive to say “gay women” over “lesbian”? Or is it preferred, (sort of like how female actors would rather be called actors than actresses)?
It’s a matter of personal preference and local customs.
Secondly, (And this question is why I’m putting this thread in GD); Regarding public perception, who has it more difficult, gays or lesbians?
I can’t compare these. Both/and.
Third; Is there truth to the stereotype that gays and lesbians often don’t get along?
Some prefer gay woman or just gay, but I haven’t run into any lesbians that were offended by either.
Both sides have it kinda rough, but often in different ways. As you note, women are freer to engage in public affection, especially of the non-sexual variety. Men just aren’t socially ‘allowed’ to engage in physical affection, even if it’s not sexual. At the same time, lesbians have to deal with the ‘Oh, can I join in or watch?’ bullshit that straight men regularly say. Of course, us gay guys tend to get the ‘you’re going to burn in hell’ speeches more often than lesbians seem to.
This one could be talked out for ages! In smaller towns, there is a lot more…togetherness for lack of a better word. You pretty much always work together on things, go to the same bars, play sports together, and so on. In large areas like LA, there is a lot of diversity and things to do, so the gay and lesbian communities don’t overlap nearly as much. Although this is going away, there was a perception for a number of years that it was the lesbians that carried a lot of the work during the early AIDS crisis which led to some animosity. (they did all the work and the guys just kept partying and fucking was some of the perception) Then there is always the small, but still there, groups of gay guys that don’t like women in general and the lesbians that don’t like men.
Bear in mind that I live in the echo chamber of sensitivity that is Portlandia.
No, y’all are quite correct; it’s not mainstream. I generally try to avoid it, as I would avoid “a gay,” but that’s a product of my social, cultural, and professional environment.
So instead of “avoid it,” I’d say “be careful with it.” (Or alternatively, don’t worry about labeling anyone at all, but that might be a big ask.)
But Guin, I’d hazard a guess that you absolutely have heard “lesbian” as an adjective: “She’s lesbian.” No?
Never heard that anyone would be offended by the word lesbian. I think a lot of lesbians are quite happy to be called that, although as noted, some want to just be called gay, and some don’t care fore labels at all. I don’t know any lesbians who would take offense to someone saying “Karen is a lesbian…” as opposed to “Karen is lesbian…” although both seem to be about the same to me.
As a gay man, life is rough but I don’t think it’s any rougher than for lesbians. I think it would be pretty shitty to have straight guys thinking they could fix me if I was a lesbian by just fucking some good sense into me. On the flip side, you do get to hear the lovely word faggot as a general insult a lot, but dyke is relatively rare. The word dyke is almost never used as a general insult, and only really applied against lesbians. Not sure if that’s a good or a bad thing, but hearing faggot a lot really is not pleasant, and it’s such a ridiculously common slur. I play a lot of online video games though, so that’s where I’m hearing it most of the time. I also see it in online comments and such.
I do have some gay male friends who do not like women, and who do not like lesbians either. This puzzles me, and I’ve asked them about it, but they can’t respond with any good reasoning. They just like men, associate with men, and women can go take a hike in their opinion, lesbians included. It’s sad and frustrating. So yes there is definitely some truth to it. I think there are some bars around Houston where as a gay man you wouldn’t want to go hang out, or as a gay woman you wouldn’t want to hang out at others.
Our mayor, Anise Parker, however, is extremely popular with both gay men and women, so that’s something (she is gay).
I’ve also never heard “a lesbian” is offensive while “lesbian” is not. The word “queer” tends to be offensive as a noun but often not as an adjective, to the extent that its reclaimed use is as an adjective but not as a noun. Is that what you’re thinking of?
As to the second question, there’s a lot in the literature about how things that are perceived to threaten or disrupt masculinity and the display of masculinity tend to get some people very riled up, and these perceived threats include men who are gay much more so than women who are. One of the memes out there is that, because men are more stereotyped as sexual aggressors than women are, and because gay men would pursue men, the straight men who are used to only being aggressors themselves would suddenly find themselves being pursued and would find that threatening. So, these are reasons to think it’d be harder being gay as a man than as a woman. But, as to people’s actual experienced difficulty, I don’t know. I know of environments where many more women are out as gay than men, and environments where it’s the other way around.
On the subject of gay men and lesbians not getting along, there is a related statement that sometimes comes from lesbian political and social action groups to the effect that they see themselves as women before they see themselves as gay, and they don’t appreciate the way men dominate the gay rights movement like we dominate most other things, nor do they appreciate being seen as some kind of female version of the prototypical gay person who is male.
Even though it can come across that way online, I don’t purport to be an authority. Alls I can speak to is my own anecdotal experience, and my own circles. Might not even be a thing in the rest of the universe.
I’m not Guin, but I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard anyone say “She’s lesbian.” I have heard “lesbian” used as an adjective to modify some other noun, e.g. “lesbian feminists” or “lesbian relationship”, but not just “She’s lesbian.”
A quick Google produces 33,600 hits on “She’s lesbian” (in quotes), while “She’s a lesbian” gets 2,660,000. So while the former isn’t unknown it seems to be pretty uncommon.
Nope, not that I can recall. I mean, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I personally have never heard it. However, I can tell you with certainty that I have never ever heard that “a lesbian” is offensive. I would compare it to “a homosexual”, rather than “a gay”.
And for the record “a gay” sounds funny, not offensive, to my ears. If someone said “drewtwo99 is a gay” I’d laugh, not take offense. If someone said “drewtwo99 is a fag” then I’d be a bit pissed.
In Nam, it was us against Charlie. Additionally, there was draftees against the lifers. Once we were back from the bush/jungle/etc. in a safe (relatively) area and off duty, Black GIs tended to band together, Hispanic GIs tended to band together, and White GIs tended to band together. It wasn’t a formal segregation and certainly not official, but it happened organically.
My point being, while the LGBT community bands together against an external threat, when that external threat subsides, they may or may not have much use for each other socially.
