General questions to lesbians from a gay man.

In My Humble Opinion
1

[This is the first time I am starting a thread, so I hope I will be forgiven if I have started it in the wrong place.]

Some of the threads on SDMB prompted me to start a discussion on the internal ODP board on the broad subject of “being gay”. (The ODP forums are restricted to editors so I cannot reference them here, unfortunately.)

It appears that we do not have many (if any) lesbians who read that particular forum, and some questions have come up which have gone unanswered. As a gay man, I have long wanted to ask things of lesbians, but didn’t know anyone I could ask. I am hoping that perhaps here I can find some answers. I am therefore going to cut’n’paste one of my own posts from the ODP thread to this new one to start it going.

==========

I’d like to ask a few questions of the lesbians among us. I pose them as someone totally ignorant of certain things and very eager to learn. Please answer in that spirit. I don’t know any lesbians well enough to ask these things, nor have I known any in many years.

I’ll start off with terminology: among lesbians, is the term “dyke” considered derogatory when coming from (a) outside circles and/or (b) insider circles?
[Note: refer to earlier exchanges on derogatory terms for “gay” which are sometimes ok when used among gay people.]

Expanding on the previous question, what about the terms “lipstick lesbian” and “bull dyke” (or equivalents)? [These terms are VERY common among gay men in reference to lesbians.]

And finally (for now), I’d be interested to know some terms which might be roughly equivalent to gay male terms such as “twink”, “daddy”, and so on. In other words, common slang names used to identify types - if any terms are used.

I’d also like to branch off and say that I’ve never really understood why it is that gay men and women don’t mix much - at least, that’s how it seems to me. Here in Bournemouth, it seems that lesbians do go to many of the gay bars, but in my experience, that’s somewhat rare. I have heard that lesbians feel unwelcome in gay bars - and also know some gay men who wouldn’t want to see lesbians in gay bars, but I don’t understand why.

Is it that gay men (and perhaps gay women) feel unable to express themselves in the presence of the opposite sex? Is it something closer to a phobia? General distrust? Bigotry?

==========

Someone on the ODP asked why there is a distinction between “gay” and “lesbian”? After all, isn’t “gay” synonymous with “homosexual” without regard to the sex of the person? I didn’t know how to answer that.

Thanks in advance! :slight_smile:

2

Hello ffabris, and welcome to the SDMB.

The appropriate forum for your thread, I think, is IMHO, as you are asking lesbians what they feel about such and such. These questions don’t have a single correct answer-- they’re a matter of preference and opinion. By contrast, GQ is where you ask questions that have a factual answer, such as “What’s the GNP of Japan?”, or “What’s the average rainfall in California?”

Also, there is a series of threads you should be aware of in the Great Debates forum:
Ask the Gay Guy! Part 4
Ask the Gay Guy! Part 3
Ask the Gay Guy! Part 2
Ask the Gay Guy! Part 1

They’re great threads, and I highly recommend you check them out. You may find your questions have already been answered.

3

I was aware of the “Ask the Gay Guy” threads, but thought that they were perhaps not appropriate for questions directed at lesbians. Maybe I was wrong. :o

I guess a mod will move the thread, and I apologize for having started it in the wrong forum.

4

I have no specific cite for this, but I recall reading in some discussion of the history of gay/lesbian activism, that one of the reasons gays and lesbians aren’t that fond of socializing or working together in groups is because gay men are still “men” at root and are wired to be assertive, and tend to “take charge” of conversations and overall social interactions which tends to intimidate some gay women and irritates them intensely.

5

Off to IMHO.

6

I don’t like any of those phrases. I think “lesbian” is sufficient. I don’t go out of my way to take offense, but I would never use them to honestly describe any other lesbians.

I like men intellectually. I like them a lot intellectually. I like them as friends, typically online. I not only do not like them physically, I feel threatened when in a group of them. Or when in situations where I am alone with a man. I only want to be with other women, regardless of the circumstance.

That’s my problem, not theirs. But I know I’m not alone in having it.

I’m not sure why there is a real driver for men to go to lesbian bars and lesbians to gay bars. But then, it’s been a while since I tried to hang out in any fashion.

Some women refer to themselves as “gay”. I almost never do so. I cannot tell you why there is a distinction, other than it seems to be the common parlance.

You may be close to the target here in some repsects. I’m not sure.

In another aspect, some lesbians simply have a strong hatred of men - very strong. Not many, not a majority, but some. This hatred even extends to transexual women, who are seen as “interlopers”, “intruders”, or even along the lines of “spies” ( :confused: ) - and they are often subjected to serious abuse as a result. Whether it is fair or reasonable is irrelevant - men are made to feel unjustly unwelcome at many lesbian establishments to try and make sure that no one is “offended” by their presence. Or something.

7

IANALesbian, (gay male) but I have a pretty close friend who is a lesbian, which, in my limited experience, seems rather uncommon. My thoughts have always been that a big connection between gay and straight men is shared experiences as a male, while the connection between gay men and straight women is the attraction to and appreciation of males. Gay men and lesbians have neither of these in common, so it cuts way down on the common ground. My friend and I have a group of mutual friends and the shared experience of growing up gay in small town, which might account for our friendship.

8

I’ll start off with terminology: among lesbians, is the term “dyke” considered derogatory when coming from (a) outside circles and/or (b) insider circles?
[Note: refer to earlier exchanges on derogatory terms for “gay” which are sometimes ok when used among gay people.]
I identify as a dyke, and prefer to use that word when describing other lesbians. Some lesbians prefer “lesbian”, “gay lady” (this term gives me the heebie jeebies), “queer woman” etc. Dyke works for me.

I don’t consider the word dyke to be derogatory. But bear in mind that given the right tone of voice, inflection etc any word can become derogatory. It aint the word that’s offensive - it’s the context in which it’s used.

When I get idiots hanging out of their cars yelling “ya fuckin’ dyke!”, all I can think of is… wow… I wonder how long it took them to figure it out? Even when I’m being screamed at, I don’t really take offense to it. I suppose if they were yelling it at me while beating me, I might change my mind.
Expanding on the previous question, what about the terms “lipstick lesbian” and “bull dyke” (or equivalents)? [These terms are VERY common among gay men in reference to lesbians.]

I’ve seen lipstick lesbian and bulldyke used to refer to very femme or very butch women, respectively. Bulldyke, I’ve seen particularly used to describe especially “mannish” women. Personally the term bulldyke annoys me as it brings up connotations of hairy behemoths with grease-covered hands and a beat-up Harley in their garage. I don’t know why that offends me but it does. I think because it adheres to stereotypes, and I dislike stereotypes generally.
And finally (for now), I’d be interested to know some terms which might be roughly equivalent to gay male terms such as “twink”, “daddy”, and so on. In other words, common slang names used to identify types - if any terms are used.

Around here, “butch” and “femme” are most commonly used - to somehow draw a distinction between dykes who wear dresses and dykes who wear jeans. For the life of me, I can’t see the need for it. A dyke is a dyke is a dyke. She may like skirt-wearing dykes, she may like jeans-wearing dykes, she may like kaftan-wearing dykes :eek: …god, who cares? She’s a woman who likes shagging women! Strangely enough, there is a huge political thing going on in Brisbane about butch/femme. I don’t get it.

RE: “twink” and “daddy”. I’ve heard some dykes say things like “I want a daddy”, in the context of having a relationship that is based on power-play… but you won’t hear anyone refer to such-and-such a dyke as a daddy.
I’d also like to branch off and say that I’ve never really understood why it is that gay men and women don’t mix much - at least, that’s how it seems to me. Here in Bournemouth, it seems that lesbians do go to many of the gay bars, but in my experience, that’s somewhat rare. I have heard that lesbians feel unwelcome in gay bars - and also know some gay men who wouldn’t want to see lesbians in gay bars, but I don’t understand why.

Try being a lesbian in a “gay men’s” pub. You won’t get served. At least not until every man in the place has been served, whether or not he was in front of you in line. For women in gay men’s venues, we may as well be invisible. My personal opinion on this is that there are two major reasons for this. Firstly, men drink a hell of a lot more than women, so it is good business to attend to the bigger spenders, who in this case happen to be men. Secondly, sad to say it… I’ve met an awful lot of misogynist gay men. I’ve met a few nice ones too… but at the end of the day, they are still men brought up in a society that continually favours men. I know this comment will probably get me flamed.

Someone on the ODP asked why there is a distinction between “gay” and “lesbian”? After all, isn’t “gay” synonymous with “homosexual” without regard to the sex of the person? I didn’t know how to answer that.

I suppose “gay” may be synonymous with “homosexual” in theory, but when the word “homosexual” is mentioned, I would hazard a guess that most people think of a gay man. Ergo, “gay” is associated with gay men. I don’t use the word gay to refer to myself. I simply don’t identify with it.
Max :slight_smile:

9

Quite all right. Apologies not necessary. :slight_smile:

I think you’ll find that you can ask just about any question here, so long as it’s phrased politely. You wouldn’t believe the kind of things we talk freely about here. On the other hand, if you’ve been lurking, you probably would. :smiley:

Now that your thread’s in IMHO, I hope you find the answers you’ve been looking for. (Not that I can help in that regard; I’m female, but of the heterosexual variety.)

10

I sometimes refer to myself as a “trannie dyke” and I’m not offended by the use of the term either by other women or by men. I don’t know any other lesbians (at least not well; just a few others on the boards who I’ve never met, and probably several who haven’t told me), so I can’t offer much about “inside” usage of the terms.

I don’t care for the stereotyping terms of “lipstick lesbian” or “bull dyke”; it’s my impression that those categories cover a tiny fraction of the diversity that are lesbians. Besides, “bull dyke” is forever in my mind associated with the flash video “I’m a Cow”, which usually isn’t the image people are going for when they use the term.

11

First of all, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply - I really appreciate it!

OK. Seems that there isn’t universal agreement on this - but then again, that is by no means surprising. I would be surprised if there were universal agreement. :wink:

Just to make sure I understood: this coming from lesbians?

I think there is truth to this. Based on comments I have heard in gay bars, I am not surprised that lesbians would not feel comfortable going to them. But again, I wanted to hear the ladies’ point of view.

I have to say that I find it quite surprising that here in Bournemouth, so many lesbians - and straights too - frequent gay pubs and clubs. I have no idea why that might be.

I have been lurking for quite some time, actually. :slight_smile:

12

*Originally posted by ffabris *
**
I’ll start off with terminology: among lesbians, is the term “dyke” considered derogatory when coming from (a) outside circles and/or (b) insider circles?
[Note: refer to earlier exchanges on derogatory terms for “gay” which are sometimes ok when used among gay people.]

Expanding on the previous question, what about the terms “lipstick lesbian” and “bull dyke” (or equivalents)? [These terms are VERY common among gay men in reference to lesbians.]**

I use “dyke” quite frequently and refer to myself as such, but for the most part it’s not acceptable coming from heteros. I do have a few straight friends who use it in a non-bothersome manner.

I’d say that “femme” and “butch” are more commonly used than lipstick lesbian/bull dyke. This could be geographic, since I’m American. Also, “crunchy” can be used as a modifier (crunchy as in granola, meaning a back-to-nature Mother Earth type).

And finally (for now), I’d be interested to know some terms which might be roughly equivalent to gay male terms such as “twink”, “daddy”, and so on. In other words, common slang names used to identify types - if any terms are used.
I think there are fewer types than are among men. However, “four year lesbian” or “LUG (lesbian until graduation)” are common terms for women who sleep with women in college but then date men after that.

**I have heard that lesbians feel unwelcome in gay bars - and also know some gay men who wouldn’t want to see lesbians in gay bars, but I don’t understand why.

Is it that gay men (and perhaps gay women) feel unable to express themselves in the presence of the opposite sex? Is it something closer to a phobia? General distrust? Bigotry?**

In my experience (for whatever reason) a lot of gay men are downright rude when lesbians are in “their” space. When I go to the gay bookstore here, men will push past you without bothering to say “excuse me”. It’s like they don’t even see us. Personally, I don’t mind gay bars, but they’re lonely places–you still see the same old dykes wherever you go! I think that there may be lesbians who look down on the amount of casual sex in the gay male community, although I’m certainly not one of them. Maybe they don’t want to be around in a place where people are getting picked up for casual sex?
Someone on the ODP asked why there is a distinction between “gay” and “lesbian”? After all, isn’t “gay” synonymous with “homosexual” without regard to the sex of the person? I didn’t know how to answer that.

Gay does equal homosexual, but it’s often used by both the straight & gay communities to mean gay men. For instance, I’ve seen articles in the straight press titled something like “Gays More Likely to Smoke”, but when you read the article, you discover that the research group only includes men. I picked up a book that looked interesting called “Gaydar” only to discover that it was all about men with nothing about lesbians.

It may be that gay men have used the term “gay” to so often discuss only themselves and exclude any mention of lesbians that lesbians now feel that the phrase “gay and lesbian” is needed to demonstrate that an article, book, etc. is not just about men.

13

Ffabris, sorry it’s taken me so long to reply. I have a habit of contributing to a thread then forgetting about it.

In answer to your question, yes, lesbians here refer to each other as lipstick lesbians and bulldyke, albeit infrequently. Femme and butch are used much more frequently. LL and BD are usually intended to represent the extremes of the butch/femme spectrum. I’ve also heard “diesel” used to refer to butch dykes.

I don’t know that I mentioned it before, but I find this distinction (and therefore, separation) of feminine vs masculine lesbians quite annoying. It creates stereotypes; something I find ridiculous among the members of a community that are already marginalised and have all sorts of stereotypes associated with them.

Not only that, there is a certain element of mimicing heterosexual relationships - you’ll see many “butch” women only going for “femme” women (and vice versa). In extremes, the “butch” of the relationship is the breadwinner whilst the “femme” goes shopping, cleans the house, etc. Don’t laugh! I have seen relationships like this. And they, along with the definitions of butch and femme, reinforce stereotypes that I, personally, do not wish to be associated with.

These stereotypes are typically to do with gender roles - and I think the reason I find them so irritating is that lesbians and gay men, almost by definition, are breaking gender roles just by virtue of being lesbian/gay! Why do we suddenly want to undo that? I just don’t get it.

Max :slight_smile:

14

No worries at all! :slight_smile:

I understand this completely, since it occurs in the gay male community as well. What I was fishing for was usage of terms.

Thanks again!