Gays and Lesbians.

Great Debates
21

A lesbian checking in here. :smiley:

I’m British, so lesbian culture here might vary from the US.

I don’t know anyone who objects to be called lesbian/a lesbian. I probably use gay woman/lesbian interchangeably. Some lesbians use the word dyke, reclaiming it I suppose. I’m still not keen on it and anyone who isn’t a lesbian certainly shouldn’t use it. Tongue in cheek, we also use ‘sister’, as in ‘Have you met Julie? She’s a sister’. I guess it’s a contraction of ‘scissor sister’, another term for lesbian. A term which should probably be left to lesbians to use.

I think gay men and women experience different kinds of societal problems, impossible to say who ‘has it worse’. I do, however, disagree with the people up thread who say it’s easier for women to show affection towards each other in public - that’s a sure way to attract some fairly nasty comments of the ‘you just need some dick’ kind. There’s a huge difference between what goes on in porn and what two women can do in public.

As for gay men and women disliking each other, I would say there is a small minority who are like this but it isn’t the norm in my social circles at all. When it occurs, I’ve noted it’s often young men, in the first flush of coming out, who have no time for anyone they can’t view as potential sex objects. They usually grow out of it. No doubt there’s some men hating lesbians around, but not any of my acquaintance.

In my experience, gay men and women are drawn together - when you are part of a minority, it’s natural that you cluster together. Our friendship group, including men and women, is very close as very few of us have children, so our friends are our family.

22

Hello San Vito,

I very much enjoyed hearing from you. So often what I get to hear from gay people seems like an opinion coming from someone with some kind of agenda. It was very nice to hear from you. What you said sounded very honest to me.

23

Why, thank you. blushes

24

This is a pretty interesting concept, actually.

Us straight men have this problem too. :smiley: Blame the hormones.

25

Last night over several drinks, some friends of mine and I got into some of these issues. (To set the scene, at the table were two cis gay women, one cis gay man, a cis bi man (moi), and a trans gay man.) As always, purely anecdotal, but this is where we mostly ended up.

Labels: My lesbian friends’ concern is not so much with “a lesbian” as the idea of being described solely by one’s orientation. They both (and my trans friend as well) grew up hearing “she’s a lesbian” as an insult, from both men and women. While it was less hurtful than “she’s a dyke,” it was still something they experienced, and it kinda sucked until they could reclaim it in a more positive way. As a result, they both feel it depends entirely on context. By preference, neither uses the word much as all, as it just rarely comes up in their lives, but neither is automatically offended by “a lesbian.”

(They pointed out that it’s complicated by the fact that there is no single word that means “gay man.” “Lesbian woman” is redundant; lesbian automatically means female, while “gay” no longer automatically means male.)

But as a man, and as a bisexual man, and as a professional “touchy-feely,” I’ve probably misinterpreted it. I personally hear “a lesbian” in the same way as “a gay”: awkward, weird, and depersonalizing. But I’m clearly in a distinct minority, and certainly don’t claim any high ground. As always, I’ll call you by whatever you want me to call you.

Regarding the “not getting along” thing, it occurred to us that there might be some gender role perception involved, particularly among young people and people first coming out. Both of the women at the table recounted going through a distinct “dieselly” period in their youths, rejecting many of the trappings of “traditional” femininity, mostly during and right after they came out. While that’s not something every gay women goes through, it’s not at all uncommon. If a woman is embracing severe butchitude, it might make sense that she would feel some degree of dislike, or even contempt, for a young gay man who is himself rejecting stereotypical masculinity.

Similarly, that young gay man (represented by the self-described “pretty goddamn princes, bitches” friend at the table), might feel threatened or uncomfortable by a woman who seems to be deliberately adopting the masculine traits he is so desperately trying to break free of.

In either case, that discomfort, coupled with the angsty, sometimes very outspoken identity-searching that comes with being young and newly out, might well form the basis for the stereotype of gay men and gay women not getting along.

It’s all talking out our asses fueled by way too much whiskey, of course…but it seems like it makes sense.
I’m 40, and I’ve been out for over twenty-five years or so, and I’m so very glad I continue to learn more about what makes people tick.

26

That makes a lot of sense Andros. What I noticed (and went through myself) wasn’t so much “not getting along” but more wanting to spend as much time as possible with other gay men. Which pretty much excluded spending any free time with straight men or women at all. Discovering that I wasn’t the only guy in the world that was into guys made me want to get as much into that world as I could.

27

Well, this is clearly an injustice that cannot be allowed to stand. What’s our word? :stuck_out_tongue:

28

Y’all are so scary that all of yours have been coöpted by the bigots. Well, and “gay” and “homosexual,” I suppose, that have been appropriated by the wimminfolk. :slight_smile:

29

I was at a gay-themed event yesterday with somebody credentialed in LGBT studies, and zie had never heard of “a lesbian” being deprecated, nor had any other attendees.

30

I agree with that, but I also think that some kinds of physical contact are a lot more sociable acceptable from women than men; many will not even lead to the assumption that the women involved are lesbians, while if it was two men it would lead to them being assumed to be gayer than a Pride Parade. Women waltzing with each other? Unless there’s something more going on, people will assume they’re doing so because they want to dance damnit and the men are all busy shoring up the walls; it’s for the women’s safety, you see. Two guys waltzing? … right. That specific example is from Spain and Italy, but there’s others I’ve encountered in the UK and US which would have been more complicated to describe.

31

I would just like to thank everyone for their input. I’m really happy that I asked these questions! If I have any more, I won’t be afraid to ask!

I’ve really learned a lot.

32

I would like to put out my own pet hypothesis that a lot of lesbians might dislike gay men because of the perception (that is often extremely accurate) that gay men are hyper sexual and very sexually open, talking about who is hot, who they want to lay, etc (no more than an average straight man really, and I work around tons of them who talk this way). Lesbians, in my experience, don’t tend to blab on and on about who they’d like to fuck

33

God, they do in mine. Well, the single ones anyway.