OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying.

I said “in my defense”, but scratch that. It’s clearly the opposite. Let’s make that: What the fuck was I thinking there?

It’s slowly sinking in now. I need some fresh air. Right now, it feels like I was in the Stanford prison experiment, or something. Only I was the one running the experiment.

Yeah. That got weird. If I hurt anyone, I am truly sorry.

No, you are so unjudgmental and protective of [del]our[/del] your friend, that it is obvious to all. Smitten, perhaps.

Let’s see:

It seems quite different from the invitation in your OP:

Sure, you aren’t openly calling for infanticide, but you’re sympathetic:

all my bolding. If it were a case where the person were avocating killing a baby quickly rather than let him/her be tortured to death, you may have a point, but you know fucking well that zpg is calling for death rather than have an unknown person adopt. Someone like, say Spice.

You have absolutely no problem calling out people for insulting your girlfriend, but cannot really muster a condemnation for killing a baby.

Go to hell.

For those who wonder why I take the subject of infanticide particularly personally, perhaps the following can help explain.

In exactly four weeks from today, it will have been 10 years to the day that I held my dying baby son in my hands.

His labored breathing growing more and more faint. His mother begged him to breath while his father bawled in his stead.

We pleaded that he last for even a few more precious moments while I performed a family ritual which welcomed him into our clan.

I finished and he was no more. His still body lie there, unmoving but not unloved. It look years to learn to live after that. Years.

z, you simply are a monster. I don’t care if you are simply insane or a troll. It doesn’t matter. You are simply evil.

I actually don’t wish bodily harm on you. Rather something worse. I hope that some day you will realize what an evil person you are.

And Martin. Go. to. hell.

You’re fine. You’re overthinking this. Let it die, everyone will forget eventually. Unless you have found yourself repeatedly defending the indefensible, it’s probably not a thing.

It’s hard sometimes not to take things personally. Some wounds are gaping raw and never heal. I lost my unborn child two years ago. The pain of loss is the place where TokyoBayer is coming from, I’m guessing. Certain viewpoints have a way of striking at nerves.

On preview: Nailed it. Hugs to you, TokyoBayer.

Fair enough. I am very sorry.

And to you, too, Spice Weasel: I am very sorry.

I don’t agree.

Based on your quote of his words up-thread, he seems to believe the only objection to killing an infant is not because of any inherent value of that child’s life, but because of the impact on other people, parents and other potential caregivers. So it’s not as if it’s “not as bad as killing a mouse but killing a mouse is really really bad”, but it’s on a different level entirely. The mouse’s life has inherent value but the infant’s life apparently does not.

Even if the above is incorrect, there’s another aspect to it as well. What he’s doing is disputing the conventionally understood and accepted basis for opposition to infanticide. What you’re saying is that he’s substituted another basis for opposition to infanticide. But that alternative basis which is a) not widely shared, and b) logically independent of his position on the currently accepted basis for the opposition. So he’s urging that society jettison its basis for opposition to infanticide, while his concurrent argument that society accept some sort of other basis is not compelling.

It’s as if a guy says “There’s nothing wrong with killing people on moral grounds, but I’m opposed to it anyway because it messes up the economy”, or something like that. If that’s less abhorrent and damaging than just saying “There’s nothing wrong with killing people on moral grounds”, it’s not by much.

Well here’s my theory.

You started the thread as a forum in which to mock ZPGZ, but got criticized in several early posts over your passive-aggressive approach. So you reacted by turning it into a serious attempt to understand ZPGZ etc. (beginning in post #9). And then when that in turn got heavily criticized, you decided to rejoin the crowd yet again (beginning in post #248).

Speculation, of course.

Not to worry. You are just another asshole who thinks he knows better…only to find out you are just an asshole.

Could be. As I said earlier, if everyone is calling a person an asshole, maybe that person really an asshole. So, I will apply that logic to myself, too. Data point noted.

Something like that sounds reasonable. Let’s try this:

I started out by taking my social cues from the majority, mocking ZPG. I got accused of bullying, and of being part of a bullying culture.

So, instead, I tried taking the side of the person being bullied. Because being accused of bullying made me feel uncomfortable.

Then that got criticized, too, and now that was uncomfortable. So I flip-flopped back to joining the majority.

In this reading, I’m just a jackass who can’t stand feeling a little bit uncomfortable, and who instantly cries “joke!” whenever my true colors are revealed and criticized. I’m actually an asshole who holds a number of disgusting opinions, but I don’t have the courage to stand up for what I really believe when the heat is on. Well, I can’t disprove any of that, at least not off the bat. Only my future behavior can ever convince those who thinks that of anything else.

Some of it might be true, specifically the “doesn’t like feeling uncomfortable” part. As for the “harboring disgusting opinions, but being too scared to show my true colors” part, everyone will have to make up their own minds. If someone wants to hash that out with me in another thread at any point, I’m cool with that.

Although, I will note the following. You said (my emphasis):

But in post #9, I said this:

I really hope no took that seriously. I thought I was signalling “joke”, “I’m goofing off” and “what follows is an attempt to understand ZPG, but, please, don’t take all of this literally” there with giant flags, sirens and billboards. Either that, or I’m clearly a lunatic.

Basically: “Either this is a joke thread, at least to an extent, or I’m literally nuts. I’m cool with you taking it either way. However, in this thread, don’t take anything I might say personally, or too literally.”

I thought you wanted this to just drop. If so, just let it go already and quit yammering on and on.

Dig up, stupid.

No skin off my nose. I’m morbidly fascinated by ZPG but I tend not to take her views personally. The main thing that sticks in my craw is the classism, honestly, because that’s a type of bigotry that a lot of people actually have. Infanticide as an alternative to adoption is so horrifically out there you can’t really take anyone’s opinion seriously after that. I’m actually glad this thread was started because I’ve been burning with curiosity about how she reconciles zero population growth values with having such a hard-line stance against adoption. She answered my question here - her solution to unwanted children is infanticide. I mean, what do you even do with that?

Bullying is a real thing. But sometimes what looks like bullying is just a bunch of people individually and justifiably reacting out of their own pain, or contempt that is driven by an appeal to basic human decency.

FTR, the “disgusting opinion” aspect is not part of my theory. What I’m speculating is that you were trying to understand and semi-respect these opinions because it initially seemed like a more popular thing to do, not because you genuinely had any respect for them. But when the opinions started to actually be associated with you, and you were suspected of harboring some affinity for them, you backed off.

I don’t think so. Joke and serious opinion are not either/or, and people express serious opinions in the form of jokes. Obviously mention of “interdimensional portal” was a joke, but it appeared to be an attempt to make the point that she lives in an isolated sub-culture in which her approach was normal.

In post #26, you reiterated the exact same theme but without any humor. It doesn’t seem to me that the overall point was intended as a joke. I could be wrong.

The attitude of valuing an fetus or an infant over a adult sentient woman chilling. It total gives me the creeps. Too many people on the Dope seem to worship children, especially babies which quite honestly don’t even seem human to me (the ability to think and communicate is what separates us from animals, not the ability to breathe and shit). There’s no such empathy for adults and the problems unwanted babies produce in their lives and the attitude that a mature adult ready and able to contribute to the good humanity should sacrifice everything for a baby that’s just a possibility is something I find very horrifying.

Well, it was initially just because I found her strange antics hilarious, and I though it might be fun to put my pants on my head and goof off. I thought that it might provide some entertainment. As I said, I didn’t know about the infanticide stuff at that point. I’m not laughing anymore, though.

Anyway. Dropping this now, as suggested. Thanks, all.

Have you ever had a child that survived?

In other words because you had a tragic experience and lost a baby you loved everyone should worship infants and value them above everything on earth. As sad as your experience with a dying infant was, I don’t doubt it was horrifying and painful to you, try holding the hand of a twenty-year old screaming in pain and eventually dying from the complications of self-induced abortion. Been there. Done that too often. Watch the life drain out of a brilliant, talented artist as she bleeds to death from a pregnancy that should not have been allowed to continue. then watch the infant her life was sacrificed for grow up to be rapists gang-banger. See a young man with the intelligence and leadership abilities to be a future President be ground to dust by the toll of working two minimum-wage jobs to support a baby he hates and then eventually have to call the police when you find his body swinging from a rope in the family garage. That’s the reality baby worshipping gives us. It doesn’t improve the world for infants. When there are too many of them, they quickly lose their value. It does make life hell for adults however.

I have no desire to physically give birth. The whole process grosses me out and I have been watching and assisting midwives with natural childbirths since I was a teenager. I have a four nieces and five nephews in my immediate family and two god daughters. I would lay down my life for them. And I would kill to protect them.

Good.