OMG, call 911

[Mr.Krebbs]

@Sailboat

A point can be made regarding the supposedly heavy security at the DOE facilities – the hired security guards keep failing tests and losing exercises intended to determine if armed terrorist could get into the facilities. Here’s one link, but there are plenty more stories like it.

Huh. So you’re saying that security at a nuclear weapons facility would fail at neutralizing a terrorist threat because its guards are on such high alert that one skeleton crew almost eliminated friendlies during an exercise? Your link only indicates a lack of coordination during training, not incompetent security (although incompetent communication was certainly the predominate factor in said lack of coordination).

@enipla

This situation again shows how little people know about hunters and guns in general. I really feel sorry for the LEOs that where asked to respond to this.

What a waste of time.

Agreed, 100%.

@Zebra

Can you imagine the pitting the ‘yankee’ would have got if he didn’t call the cops after seeing two armed men, if those armed men went on to attack the facility?

It would have made the paper, but any similarly equipped attackers would have been dispatched with little difficulty. The only military applications for a shotgun are door-breaching, combat within close quarters and security (again, within close quarters). This is a waterfowl shotgun and this guy has riflemen backing him up. Shotguns have very limited range, even with rifled slugs. Lack of magazine capacity is another reason the shotgun’s military applications are limited.

Just to throw you devil’s advocates a bone, a hunting rifle might be a worthy concern, if terrorists were to attack a nuclear facility with the assistance of snipers. (Not a likely situation: it would be a waste of manpower in that scenario.)

[Jimmy_Joe_Meager]

This thread’s on its third page now… and no Dick Cheney jokes yet?

You libby-Dems are really off your game today.

[Duke_of_Rat]

I just saw this thread.

A little context might be in order.

Pantex is a large facility, surrounded by a large perimeter of flat, barren ground. I’m not certain, but it’s probably at least a mile from the edge of the perimeter to the facility from the south, I’ve never been there from the north.

This perimeter is fixed with large numbers of sensors to detect trespassers well before they can get even remotely close to anything nuclear. Pantex also has a fairly substantial security force that is well armed with more than sticks and spitballs.

2 miles away is not much outside the security perimeter. You can’t just drive up to the office, and if you tried to do so with a gun you’d probably be killed on the spot. The Pantex security force is more along the lines of a (heavily armed) SWAT team, not a single rent-a-cop asleep at the gate.

Playing Devil’s advocate, I don’t think a “terrorist” would want to park right at the fence and start walking that last mile, he’d probably want to park, you know, about a mile away so his vehicle wouldn’t be so conspicuous.

So why would anybody be concerned about 2 guys with guns, 2 miles from the plant? Just across Highway 60 from the southern edge of the Pantex property is a settlement known as The Peace Farm. Protesters associated with The Peace Farm have tried to infiltrate the Pantex site before. It’s a badge of honor, like tagging the water tower with your graduation date. The trouble is, this causes a ruckus and could result in a display of deadly force. Nobody wants that.

So calling the sheriff to check out a couple of armed men near the plant is a lot less hassle than mobilizing the plant security force over a couple of possible peace farmers. The last time I read about a planned Peace Farm foray onto Pantex grounds, the reply from Pantex was a single sentence along the lines of, “We strongly advise against this action, anybody found inside the perimeter will be shot”. They really don’t like trespassers.

The chance that any 2 men, however they were armed, getting into the actual facility on foot are zero. The chance that 2 men might be killed for taking a misguided hike are more than zero, but not certain. I don’t think Pantex security has any jurisdiction outside their own property, so calling the Carson county sheriff’s office to check them out before sirens start blaring sounds like a reasonable thing to do, for everybody involved.

If the guys are just hunters, as in this case, tell them to have a nice day. If they are Peace Farmers, tell them that they need to form another type of protest other than trespassing. If they are OMG!1 terrorists, tell them to keep walking towards the pretty buildings in the distance.

It barely made the news around here. Nobody was the least bit concerned with any plutonium theft, they were concerned that a couple of guys might wander into a heap of Federal trouble over nothing.

[Jack_Batty]

@flickster

What an f’ing mamsy pamsy society we live in

Hunters spark lockdown of Texas nuclear weapons plant

WTF, some pencil-neck sees hunters TWO MILES from the plant and calls the cops. :rolleyes: I hope the nit wit gets charged for the response expenses.

@ExTank

And to most normal people, during hunting season, seeing people in camo heading into the woods with guns in their hands doesn’t even warrant a second glance.

@Oakminster

This happened in TEXAS. During HUNTING SEASON. Only a yankee, a city boy, or an anti-gun wingnut would call something like this in to the cops. I wouldn’t fine the guy for doing it, but I would laugh at him loud and long.
:smack:

@Oakminster

This wasn’t the TSA or other government agency enforcing rules. It was one guy that apparently “ain’t from round here” making a silly, and kinda funny, mistake.

ETA: And the hunters were probably carrying shotguns, not rifles. Ya generally don’t hunt geese with rifles.

@dnooman

If two guys walking in a field with shotguns poses a huge security risk at that property, terrorists or not, we have bigger things to worry about than calling the cops.

@Oakminster

You also don’t seem to care that these guys were doing something perfectly ordinary, at a time and in a place where such activities are to be reasonably expected. When somebody tries to blow up an airplane with a goose decoy, you might have a reasonable analogy. I can only assume it’s the fact that the guys had guns that you think justifies “suspicion”, and that’s unfortunate.

@Oakminster

Only guy missing anything by a country mile (actually 2 miles) is you. How many people do you see getting cavity searched for shampoo/shoelace/underwear bombs while standing in a hotel room 2 miles away from an airport? Not very many, I hope, because people often get dressed in hotel rooms within 2 miles of airports. There’s nothing there to justify calling the cops, just like there is no reason to call the cops on goose hunters doing what goose hunters do in a goose hunting area 2 miles away from a nuclear plant.

@Oakminster

:rolleyes:

The point is that it was silly for someone to report this non-incident in the first place.

@MeanOldLady

Dude, stop bullshitting. So what should hunters do? Carry around some sort of “I am an Official Hunter Non-Terrorist” card? People fucking hunt, big fucking deal. We’re not talking about people waving guns around in the post office. We’re talking about people going hunting, who throw on their hunting gear, load up their trucks, then go to the woods in order to hunt. What the hell do you want these people do every time they go hunting? Prove on every occasion that they’re hunters?

@Shagnasty

You need to stay away from very large sections of the country then. You would probably have a nervous breakdown in about a day during hunting season and the police would tell you to quit calling them every 5 minutes. It is perfectly normal behavior in many parts of the U.S. and nothing to so much as blink at. However, I would be a little concerned if I saw some people get out of a Mercedes in camo robes and turbans with gold plated rifles. They may be trying a little too hard to fit into the local culture a little too hard and not get it quite right if you know what I mean.

@flickster

Seems many of these city folk need to remain in the city, for their benefit and ours

@flickster

Evidently, you never bothered to read the article. The hunters never whined or complained when asked what they were up to. In fact, the article says they were fully cooperative.

This rant, which was originally posted in the BBQ Pit, was aimed at the pencil-neck that thought it necessary to call the authorities due to someone hunting 2 MILES from the plant.

@enipla

Wow. I’m not a hunter, but I am a shooter. I have no problem with hunting.

This situation again shows how little people know about hunters and guns in general. I really feel sorry for the LEOs that where asked to respond to this.

What a waste of time.

Duke of Rat, while your perspective as someone who knows a thing or two about the facility, the surrounding area and what actually went down is appreciated, it is obvious from the above that you are a pencil-neck city Yankee who hates hunters, and probably America too. But thanks anyway.

[MeanOldLady]

Look, here’s what I’m laughing at. Very little of what I’m balking about even has to do with actual event. What slays me here, what gives me a hearty guffaw, is the posters in this thread insisting that the authorities be called every time they see a hunter in the woods. Everyone read the words “gun” and “weapons plant” on the same page and went all, “Holy shit, it’s 9/11 all over again!” It kills me that some people can’t even imagine that there are places (say, the sticks for instance) on this planet where two men can be carrying shot guns and it’s no big deal. I’m from California. Do you have any idea how bizarre it struck me the first time I saw a sign at the library that said, “Hennepin County bans guns on this premises”? I thought, “Well of course.” But after living in the Midwest for two years, and after going to my friends’ houses, and seeing that these friends owned guns, and eating the deer that my pal shot and cooked himself, and half the males I know itching for hunting season all year because they can’t wait to shoot something, seeing some guys in camo during hunting season is just as common as seeing some guys with shopping bags during Christmas season. Nobody cares. Yes, yes, I know, everyone in the flyover states are a bunch of rednecks then, because in the civilized world, if someone has a gun, no matter what the context, someone is planning a killing spree.

[ExTank]

Thanks for the local perspective, Duke. It fills in some “blanks” and makes both the initial report (by a concerned employee?), and the plant and local LEO response, make much more sense.

Do you know if any of the “Peace Farmers” have ever posed as hunters (dressed in woodland camo with orange vests and/or hats) in order to approach the facility?

If not, from your description it doesn’t sound like it’s beneath them to try.

[aruvqan]

@ILovCoffee

You know, to city-slickers and wimmen-folk a shotgun and rifle are the same blessed thing—a firearm.
Intellectually I know one fires shot and the other rounds, but I would be hard put to identiify either being carried by someone else.
My husband, on the the other hand, would be able to give make, model, calibre, shot/round weight and various other facts after a quick glance. I make him watch episodes of JAG to point out when they substitute guns, planes, armored personnel carriers with actual tanks with completely different makes and models than what was in the scene earlier or even in the script to me.

sorry, this woman is also one of them that gun nuts, and I would recognize a hunting weapon, and men in camo, probably with licenses in that handy little thingy pinned on their backs, and the camo probably ORANGE to boot … and wonder if they would get lucky or come back tired and empty handed…

[Duke_of_Rat]

@ExTank

Thanks for the local perspective, Duke. It fills in some “blanks” and makes both the initial report (by a concerned employee?), and the plant and local LEO response, make much more sense.

Do you know if any of the “Peace Farmers” have ever posed as hunters (dressed in woodland camo with orange vests and/or hats) in order to approach the facility?

If not, from your description it doesn’t sound like it’s beneath them to try.

I didn’t really think much about the camo aspect of the story, and the Peace Farmers are generally not the camo wearing sort. The normal Peace Farm protest usually has a few Peace Farmers gathered in the bar ditch (barrow ditch for you Yankees) while Pantex security drives back and forth in Humvees stirring up as much dust as possible to dissuade the Peace Farmers from hanging out. I don’t think anybody has tried to get onto the property since 9-11 aside from the publicized effort I mentioned earlier.

The Peace Farm has fallen on hard times in recent years since Pantex went from nuclear weapons assembly to nuclear weapons disassembly. I’m not certain if there are many full time Peace Farmers left, but they do still get together on the Hiroshima anniversary and occasions like that.

My honest opinion is that some guy saw a couple of guys with guns in proximity to the plant and knew what would happen if they strayed onto the property. He probably knew they posed no real threat, but around here it’s common knowledge, even folklore, that you just don’t go near that place. Especially dressed in camo and carrying guns.

The fact that the two guys were employees is probably what made them think it wasn’t a big deal to be where they were, dressed in camo, and carrying guns. They knew where they couldn’t be, and knew that they were fine where they were. The guy that reported them obviously didn’t know all of this.

I was just trying to add some perspective to the “It was TWO MILES!!” and “They only had SHOTGUNS!!” aspect of the thread. It’s a big place, 2 miles ain’t jack, and they don’t care if you have a shotgun or a peace sign.

[Jack_Batty]

@MeanOldLady

Look, here’s what I’m laughing at. Very little of what I’m balking about even has to do with actual event.

Fine. And, joking aside, what I don’t get is the attitude that a guy with a gun is perfectly harmless, no matter what. Sometimes they aren’t. And a guy with a gun can do some damage, so why is a modicum of “safety first” such a laughable concept?

Especially considering my unmanagable hair when I travel?

[ExTank]

@Jack_Batty

Fine. And, joking aside, what I don’t get is the attitude that a guy with a gun is perfectly harmless, no matter what. Sometimes they aren’t. And a guy with a gun can do some damage, so why is a modicum of “safety first” such a laughable concept?

Especially considering my unmanagable hair when I travel?

I wouldn’t categorize anyone with a gun as “perfectly harmless.” Context matters.

Cabela’s (I keep spelling it with two l’s for some reason) has an outlet at a nearby mall, in St. Louis County; not exactly “the sticks.”. While they have their own buiilding, they also have an internal mall entrance.

This store also buys/sells used guns, so it’s not unusual to see people carrying firearms into the store. Most are “cased,” but some are loose; just being hand-held by the owner.

I’ve yet to see anyone get upset or nervous, be they other shoppers, Cabela’s staff, or Mall Security.

It’s also not at all unusual to see, on state and county roads during hunting season, someone park on the side of the road, take a rifle or shotgun out of their vehicle, and head into the woods. They are invaribaly in camo, with orange vests and/or hats.

I admit that it is NOT beyond the realm of possibility that they are heading towards the local plant/mill that laid them off, in order to kill everyone until the ammo runs out.

But odds are, they’re out to bag a deer, or such. A local LEO may take note, and call Fish & Game to check them out; that’s fine, as that’s their job. But in that situation, I’m not calling it in as “suspicious.”

I can’t help you with your hair and the resultant run-ins with TSA/DHS it may have caused you. If you find an answer, let me know, too. Until then, you have my sympathies.

My hair has its own notions of where it wants to be regardless of how I cut/comb it. I’m just not vain enough about my hair to squirt goo in it to make it behave.

Usually. :rolleyes:

[MeanOldLady]

@Jack_Batty

Fine. And, joking aside, what I don’t get is the attitude that a guy with a gun is perfectly harmless, no matter what. Sometimes they aren’t. And a guy with a gun can do some damage, so why is a modicum of “safety first” such a laughable concept?

Especially considering my unmanagable hair when I travel?

At the risk of being referred to as “lovebirds” again, my response is basically what **ExTank **said. The first two sentences sum it up, the rest is bonus material.

[Sailboat]

@Mr.Krebbs

Huh. So you’re saying that security at a nuclear weapons facility would fail at neutralizing a terrorist threat because its guards are on such high alert that one skeleton crew almost eliminated friendlies during an exercise? Your link only indicates a lack of coordination during training, not incompetent security (although incompetent communication was certainly the predominate factor in said lack of coordination).

No, I’m saying that the Department of Energy’s hired security guys (Wackenhut), high alert or not, have been lopsidedly defeated in several exercises.

These have been in the news, so I can mention them, but I’m not at liberty to talk about everything I know. I just didn’t spend a lot of time finding a citation, apparently it wasn’t a good one.

Here’s a better one – for sites Los Alamos and Oak Ridge:

Last November, Vanity Fair magazine ran an exposé on security vulnerabilities at Los Alamos National Laboratory and other Energy Department facilities around the nation. Based on disclosures by Energy whistleblowers, the article charged that mock “terrorists” have repeatedly defeated security forces during exercises of the lab’s security system. The whistleblowers said that the “terrorists” penetrated lab security and then got away undetected..

Rocky Flats:

Recently conducted internal tests had shown that the facility was highly susceptible to terrorist attack. In the tests, the “bad guys” had succeeded 100 percent of the time in entering the complex and gaining access to the approximately 20 tons of nuclear weapons-grade materials stored inside.

Oak Ridge again:

A Department of Energy report this year by the inspector general said current and former security guards at Oak Ridge nuclear weapons complex had complained that Wackenhut manipulated the results of drills by altering testing equipment and passing information to low-ranking guards prior to simulated attacks.

If you think those sites are critics and not official enough, how’s a member of the House Homeland Security and Energy and Commerce Committees…in this case, talking about the same security company, although not at a DOE facility:

The constant reports that Wackenhut cuts corners on these exercises, retaliates against whistleblowers and inadequately trains its security guards leaves many reactors insecure and unprepared.

Congressional Research Service:

In addition to raising “questions about the force’s independence,” GAO noted that Wackenhut had been accused of cheating on previous force-on-force exercises by the Department of Energy.

My point is, these are not a few isolated instances nor is this a few soreheads complaining – if you look around there are a LOT of stories about the security guards underperforming at DOE weapons facilities (such as Pantex) and commercial nuke power plants. Current stories, not going back twenty years.

Therefore statements about how the super-efficient security at these sites will take care of any intruders is simply chest-beating born of the sort of ignorance of current events that the Straight Dope is here to fight.

[Duke_of_Rat]

AFAIK, Wackenhut does not provide the security force for Pantex.

@Sailboat

Therefore statements about how the super-efficient security at these sites will take care of any intruders is simply chest-beating born of the sort of ignorance of current events that the Straight Dope is here to fight.

I’m not saying Pantex security is absolutely perfect, but I think they can hold off 2 guys with shotguns.

[buttonjockey308]

Well, I know first hand, Wackenhut is a mess. But that’s another story for another thread.

I think this was a perfectly reasonable thing to have checked out, which is what happened, no harm, no foul. Sorry, Texas during hunting season or not, two fellas with guns wandering toward a nuke plant turns my yellow to orange and perhaps if they ain’t doin’ anything, the local constabulary ought to give it a look-see. All I’m sayin’.

[Jack_Batty]

I used to go to a porn shop called “Wackenhut”. Probably not the same outfit, huh?