Omnibus Evil MFers in the news thread

The BBQ Pit
2601

You know who doesn’t think Newsom was being supportive of trans people?

Trans people.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/gavin-newsom-podcast-charlie-kirk-humiliating-20207067.php

Of course! Why sbould I trust a trans person’s opinion of what a politician is saying about trans people? It’s not like it’s their lives at stake or anything.

I never listened to most of Hitler’s speeches either, but I take it on good word from people whose policies were affected by him that they weren’t great. Maybe Churchill should’ve invited him on the Beeb instead of cancelling him.

2602

Yeah, that’s the strategy we adopted in 2014 or so. Protest so these people don’t speak on college campuses; we don’t talk to them, not on our shows and not on theirs; we even stop going on shows that won’t stop hosting them.

That’s how we ended up here, with Trump as president and the Right with a chokehold on alternative media. Somehow Rogan is a right wing fanatic and by far the single most popular show? How can this be?

Clearly, our approach did not work. A phrase that I recall some of the old timers around here being real fond of during the Bush era was, “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity”. Holy shit, that phrase was repeated ad nauseum.

Newsom is finally trying something different. The question is, what will the rest of us on the Left do? Will we round up the circular firing squad again, expecting that this time we will finally reach the right level of purity to start magically winning elections? Or will we also try something different?

2603

What the fuck could the fascists possibly have to say that’s worth paying attention to?

2604

Nothing. Newsom challenged Kirk and argued with him, he didn’t bring him on to marvel at his wisdom and learn from him.

The phrase Newsom kept repeating was “let’s stress test that idea” - both putting his own ideas to Kirk’s challenge and when challenging ideas Kirk presented - with the unspoken implication, and the entire damn point of the podcast being, showing that Newsom’s liberal ideas hold up to scrutiny better than Kirk’s conservative ideas.

2605

Then there’s no reason for Newsom to be palling around with him like he’s a colleague with a respectable difference of opinion and not a Nazi who wants to turn this country into a single-party theocracy.

If not wanting our leaders to hang out with Nazis is a circular firing squad, then pass the ammo.

2606

I agree; it’s a good thing that Newsom didn’t do that, then.

There is a very good argument for arguing with people like Kirk, rather than running and hiding; and that’s the fact that ignoring people like Kirk hasn’t won the public’s adoration for discrediting a fascist, but instead allowed them to build their own legitimacy unopposed.

2607

That is exactly what he did.

2608

Right, you can’t fight someone if you refuse to be in the same room with them. One of the reasons Democratic messaging is failing is because half the country just doesn’t hear it. They listen to right-wing sources exclusively, and everything is filtered through that. If we want to break the media siloing, this is how it’s got to be done. We need to go on their shows. We need to bring them on our shows. We need to get them to hear what we have to say, from our people, not distorted by their media mouthpieces.

2609

When was the last time Hannity invites Ilhan Omar on his show and treated her like a friend and told her she was right and Republicans needed to listen to her? When was the last time you were watching John Oliver or Rachel Maddow and thought “What this segment really needs is Jim Jordan’s opinion”?

That’s what I thought. Democrats gain nothing by going on Republican shows because Republicans aren’t going to treat them with sniveling deference for fear of losing access. And Democrats gain nothing from inviting Republicans on our shows and treating them like their opinion is worth hearing.

When was the last time you heard from Alex Jones? Or James O’Keefe? Mike Lindell? Jacob Wohl? Richard Spencer? Been awhile, hasn’t it? That’s because DEPLATFORMING WORKS.

Giving a fascist your microphone only empowers the fascist. We should be treating them like they have absolutely no place in polite society and shunning them wherever we encounter them.

2610

And that’s what’s been happening, and it hasn’t been successful, as others have mentioned. They already have a place in society, and it turns out a lot of people obviously don’t care about politeness. Then what?

2611

So your solution is to give them a bigger place in society?

It’s hardly as if we’re shunning them as is. Donald Trump and Elon Musk have hosted SNL. The Minority Leader is in conniptions because Al Green dared not be polite to Trump. A restaurant in DC asked Sarah Huckabee to leave seven years ago and it became the scandal of the year.

If anything, the entire reason we’re in this mess is because the media didn’t shun Trump ten years ago.

2612

Hannity isn’t running for office, he’s an entertainer; he doesn’t need to demonstrate that the ideas he’s pitching hold up when confronted by opposing views. Newsom does benefit from showing that.

Anyways, Kirk is at least an order of magnitude more influential on the Right than Omar is on the Left.

Weird non-sequitor, given that Newsom didn’t do that.

And I guarantee you that no MAGA supporter is sitting there thinking “I really want to hear Newsom’s take on this”. The idea is to expose them to Newsom’s take anyways, because that’s the only way they will ever figure out that it’s more accurate than the right wing takes they were listening to before.

What are you talking about? All of those people are still out there, and whenever I dive down the rabbit hole of “what is MAGA up to now”, I see that they’re still out there, podcasting and tweeting, and MAGA is still listening to them.

To the extent that they have become more obscure, it’s not because dEpLaTfOrMiNg WoRkS, it’s that they’ve been replaced by more popular and more odious new models, like Cadance Owens. Good luck cancelling her; you think any of her fans care whether people on the Left platform her or not? The way to fight her is to challenge her ideas and make her look like the fucking idiot she is, not pretend that if you don’t catch her MAGA cooties everything will be alright.

It’s not 2014 anymore, my dude. The fascist has a much bigger microphone than you do, at this point. Deplatforming has failed (case in point, Charlie Kirk is still around).

We did that. They slunk away, created their own shadow society with blackjack and hookers, and got Trump elected.

We can’t keep running away. We need to fight the ideological fight where they are, not stop them from accessing the platforms we fully control before throwing up a “mission accomplished” banner and going home.

2613

And neither will Newsom be now that he’s betrayed the people he expected to vote for him.

Then they don’t need our microphone as well.

And the way to do that is to have a friendly chat with them and say “yeah you’re right” over and over?

2614

I highly doubt that’s how the electorate will see it come primary time.

2615

It’s how the electorate views it right now. People are PISSED at Newsom. But keep on telling them that their feelings are wrong and they just need to spend more time hanging out with fascists and treating them like people.

We just had an election where the Democratic candidate went around bragging about being pals with the Cheneys. We’ve seen where your approach gets us.

2616
2617

Certainly, TwitterBlueSky activists are PISSED at Newsom. The majority of Democrats don’t disagree with Newsom’s stated position, though, so I highly doubt that the people pissed off at Newsom for this make up a significant portion of the electorate he needs to win over, even in the primaries. I guess we will find out.

Did we? I must have missed that. What I recall is that we just had an election where the Democratic candidate was endorsed by the Cheneys, and she accepted this endorsement and said “Wow, people from all across the political spectrum can see how bad Trump is”, and a few fringe Twitter morons had a meltdown over it.

Certainly, Kamala’s endorsement by the Cheneys didn’t hurt her nearly as much as her steadfast refusal to address the attacks on her based on something she said about trans prisoners half a decade beforehand that she didn’t even actually support anymore.

2618

I certainly wouldn’t tell people who are uncomfortable with or scared of talking to right wingers that they need to do so themselves. But someone on our side has to, or we cede anyone in the right wing bubble, forever. And that’s enough people to win the popular vote now, so I don’t think it’s a winning strategy.

We have to engage with the people who’d never listen to Gavin Newsom or any other Democrat unless he was talking to their favorite right wingers; and we do that by challenging their ideas in spaces that their fans pay attention to, and winning.

Flint Dibble went on Joe Rogan and debated Graham Hancock, and that was the first time that many Hancock fans ever saw an educated person call Graham out for his bullshit. It was stunningly effective. We need more of that, and on more serious topics than ancient aliens.

2619

Newsom going on Charlie Kirk’s show would be defensible on the “these people need to be exposed to rational thought” grounds. But Kirk fans aren’t going to be listening to the Gavin Newsom podcast. This reeks of Newsom cynically trying to take (what he perceives to be) the politically expedient lane in preparation for 2028.

2620

Is it still cynical if it’s the smart thing to do?