On etiquette and civility.

Great Debates
1

In another thread, we were talking about customer service and (as one might guess) the topic of manners and civility came up. Rather than keeping a narrow focus on the service industry, I was interested in broadening the topic.

There seems to be a consensus that civility in general is (and indeed has been for some time) in a decline. I tend to agree. I am interested to hear not only if folks agree, but also (assuming that they agree) to what the attribute this decline and what, if any, possible remedies exist.

2

I don’t think it’s changing for any type of location, but people forget that they themselves are changing.
Population shifts from small towns (with long-time residents in similar stations in life and perhaps all tied to one industry and perhaps all one ethnicity) toward the cities (where everyone rubs shoulders with strangers of different backgrounds) .
This seems like people are getting colder, that your commonplace greetings and business rituals are now being ignored, …
But that was true 20 years ago for people who left small towns.

Even in the suburbs, when houses are all new 4-bedroom jobs the place fills with compatible families with kids in school. Everyone has things in common, from struggling with new lawns and trees to calls for the city to put things in the new park.

Then kids grow up and move, houses become duplexes or apartments, and a bunch of singles and newlyweds move in.

“People” haven’t changed, but everyone who lives near you seems to have changed. The renters and newlyweds don’t care about trees and schools.

But really, it’s just that you are now living in a small family community, and it is you who are not meeting their needs vis-a-vis neighbors. But it’s not different from the 50’s or the 20’s, when the identical shifts happened to those new neighborhoods.
As the places

3

I agree wholeheartedly, and I have worked in customer service and have experienced it first hand. People are more impatient than ever, and I think the real reason is because we have moved from a family-centred society to an individualistic society where one seeks to achieve personal happiness before focussing on others.

In the 60s, strong social movements directed us away from traditional lives and into a more free-spirited lifestyle. We are seeing the fruits of that in both positive and negative ways, and one of the downsides is the loss of manners and respect.

To be fair, this is not the case everywhere. I am from Canada, a country that is generally regarded as civil, polite and unobtrusive. People here run the gamut, though, from polite to rude, depending (as I’ve seen it) mainly on age and gender. Young males here tend to be less well-mannered, and older people in general tend to be more well-mannered.

I used to work in a hotel, though, and there I got to meet people from all over the world. In my experience, Asians in general, and Japanese people in particular, are very polite and well-mannered. North Europeans (Scandinavians, Germans, English) were polite but not very friendly. Mediterranean Europeans (Italians, Spanish, etc) were polite but louder and more demanding. Didn’t get to meet too many Africans, but South Americans were similar to Mediterraneans. Americans, however, were the least well-mannered by far. I don’t mean this to be rude to Americans, or because I dislike them (Americans are also by far the best tippers), just that that was my experience and that of my colleagues (we discussed these things often).

Just a few thoughts, probably bound to piss someone off.

4

Yes, I have observed this decline. It varies by location, age group, educational level, and (if there is such a thing in the USA) social class. I think the overall decline can be traced to the homogenization of our culture. That has come primarily through TV, although movies run a close second. Other media such as print, radio and whatever else there is, are too slow-moving to assist in the spread of attitudes at the pace set by TV.

Part of it comes from the way that authority figures have slipped in their overall appeal. Sleazy politicians, celebrities known for their flagrant disregard for propriety, the distrust of the “older generation” by anyone younger, and the proliferation of the idea that “class” is a dirty word, all have helped to reduce the need for manners, respect, etiquette, and other relics of a more genteel past. It has now become more important to show disdain for phoniness than to acknowledge real achievement when it is attained.

As long as I can remember, students who tried to maximize their educational experience by studying and paying attention to rules were ridiculed by the less motivated crowd, to the point that getting a decent education has become difficult. The general dumbing down of the educational system has contributed to the lack of awareness of respect and honor for customs and heritage.

The emphasis on the rights of the many has reduced the premium on accomplishment. Being sure everybody is on the same level playing field has taken the spark out of many who might otherwise wish to hold on to the advantages their parents and elders may have struggled to get in the past.

I could go on, but these seem to be the main things I see happening. It’s discouraging if the “glories of the past” are seen as something we are losing. It’s encouraging if we see those things as gloss and unnecessary window dressing on a corrupt and evil regime of the “haves” at the expense of the “have nots.”

It’s hard to take a firm stand on these issues, since the issues vary from conversation to conversation. There are so few real values to cling to.

5

A Russian will walk into a store “Give me this.”
An American walks into a store “I want this.”
A Canadian walks into a store “Can I have this please?”

Not dissing anyone, as Americans take leadership when it’s lacking, while Canadians will do nothing.

The thing I find lacking is what I call common sense, like if you borrow my car, put gas in it.

6

I agree, wholeheartedly

7

Get it your fucking self. :smiley:

If we are going to generalize here, French Canadians have about the worst reputation for manners. (no cite)

8

While I do believe that manners and civility are declining, I think that this is due to a shortage of time and resources, not due to a change in society per se.

Road Rage comes from crowded freeways, not from societal individualism.

Shopping Rage comes from cramped stores, narrow aisles, and limited selection, not from a failure of family moral education.

Of course, these things, as they become more common, are passed along as a kind of social metabolism: when some dolt yells at you, you’re more likely to yell at the next clod who bumps into you… So, yes, society is transformed by incivility… But I think this transformation is an effect, not a cause.

Then again, what do I care what you think, buzzard-breath? (Grin!)

Trinopus

9

I disagree. I am subjected to the same conditions, yet I manage to remain civil and patient. My mother stringently taught me that it was never permissable to “make a scene” by shouting at people in a store. I’m not sure that others are being taught the same lessons, since some people seem to think that throwing a screaming fit is the way to get what they want.

Honestly, I do think it a failure of parenting and socialization. Manners have lost their importance in our society, sacrificed upon the altar of individual freedom to do whatever you wish.

There seems to be a prevailing notion that other people are unimportant in the face of what we want, and that if others feel uncomfortable about our behavior, who cares? Many influences tell us not to care what other people think-- as long as we’re happy with ourselves, everything’s good.

In movies and television, obnoxious, rude behavior is not punished, but is actually rewarded. Sports stars are “cooler” for their bad attitude and posturing. The nastier and cruder a daytime talk show guest, the more air-time they will get.

Sadly, a lot of kids’ primary socialization stems not from their parents, but from television and their peers. If none of these primary socializers are discouraging bad behavior, how will the child learn civility?

10

Well, I don’t have any documentary proof… But what I think is this: there is a natural spectrum of human patience, with good people like you and (dare I hope?) me near one end, and immature, spoiled, whiny, petulant jerks near the other…

As the environment grows more stressful, more and more people are tested to their limit and cave in, losing their temper. People who would have held on to their hat under, say, “35 Dilberts” of office stress, crack and shriek when exposed to 78.

Of course, that also begs the question: is our social environment intrinsically more stressful than it was 30 years ago? I believe it is…but I may be falling into the trap of nostalgic thinking…

Trinopus

11

That’s pretty much the way I see it. For me, there are two degrees of courtesy: being polite and not being an asshole. For example, thanking bus drivers is being polite. Putting gas in a car after you borrow it falls into the not-being-an-asshole category. I hope everyone sees the difference.

12

Pretty hard to quantify politeness. And it varies not just over time, it’s also location and social milieu. I’d tend to think the slums of anywhere, anytime, were not very civil places to be.

Tact, civility, and diplomacy are active behaviors, not just the absence of rudeness. I think we see more rudeness not just because of more unrepentantly rude people , but also because of less polite people. A lot of people who would call themselves polite still tend to feel perfectly justified in rudeness if it’s framed as vindicating themselves, proving they’re right, or making sure every knows they won’t be disrespected.

So not just more acceptance for aggressive behavior, but also less acceptance of those peacemaking behaviors that require any level of self-effacement.

To keep things polite in a group some of the people need to be willing to let other people tell them what to do. Marriage, friendship, work, somebody ‘wins’ for every disagreement, or the group falls apart.

Doesn’t have to be the same people every time, but the more people who DON’T act politely and share and take turns and all that other stuff Mommy taught you, the more those that do start to feel like they’re being screwed. So people tend to get more rude and aggressive in a group like that. I’ve been in offices like that. Where managers literal cursed each other out. Not pretty.

Which I think ties into how customer service has changed*. We’re all above being anyone’s servant but we’re all busy and want more of our tedious stuff done for us by other people who also ain’t nobody’s servant.

*I don’t think service sucks now, I think overall it’s fantastic. Less personal service yeah, but so much more impersonal service (ATM’s, direct deposit, online shopping), variety, and availability.

13

So saying please and thank you takes up too much time to express to others?

I seldom have the time and resources I used to have at work, let alone at home. This has never stopped me from being polite to others, especially those who need it most.

14

What astounds me is how ingrained it now is. It’s common to see ads on TV where people treat one another terribly just to make some lame joke in the interests of selling a product. This is particularly true with family groups. There is obviously one ad agency in Australia who thinks that it is appropriate to advertise products using disdainful, insulting parents and surly bad mannered teens who talk to each other in ways I don’t address anyone or allow anyone to address me. It’s one thing having this sort of stuff presented in a scene in a sitcom but who wants to see the same dysfunctional family scene over and over again.

15

Exactly. It seems like everyone thinks that they’re the exception to the rule. “Others should not do this, but it is okay for me to do it because my circumstances are special.”

I’ve often wondered if this is a direct result of what’s ingrained into children under the auspices of teaching them self-esteem. We teach children that they are special, and that others should accept them just as they are. Respecting people’s “individuality” has become a mantra. There is no encouragement to conform to conventional notions of civility.

I think that this has led to a misconception that accepting individuality is a license to behave however a person wishes without any social consequences.

Another point that has crossed my mind is that the relaitive anonymitity of our social settings has allowed for behavior which would be curtailed in a more tightly-knit community. Who cares if the person behind you in the movie theater is peeved because you carry on a cell-phone conversation? You’re unlikely to run into that person again.

16

Here’s an interesting survey on the issue that came out last year.

Here’s an excerpt from the intro:

17

Wouldn’t it be great if there were more Lissas, and more parents rearing their children as her’s did?

Unfortunately – and I hope I’m not letting out a dirty little secret that will come back to bite me on the butt – throwing a tantrum is a very good way to get what you want in a retail store.

Our store’s policies (no refunds or exchanges on sale items, etc.) are posted where no one can miss them. When necessary, we point these signs out and explain policy politely. However, our manager always caves if someone begins making a scene, and I’ve seen this happen in other stores as well.

18

I think so. :smiley:

19

quoth Zeldar

I believe that the problem is the opposite. For some reason, every asshole I meet seems to feel that his (or hers) needs trump everyone else. There is a sense of entitlement- it’s as if we were a country of 275 million special interest groups. “I don’t care if you are serving another customer who was here before me; I want you to drop everything and attend to me at once!” I was hoping this is an East Coast thing, but it doesn’t sound it.